Discussion
As per title - I am considering selling my E46 M3 and buying an older 911 for a weekend toy. I have heard that although the 993 is more expensive to buy, it is actually cheaper to fix than a 964. Is this true?
What are the pros/cons of both cars please? I would have a budget of around 16-18k for a 993, and the 964 I would like to pay around 12-13k so I can spend the rest on suspension/bbs wheels. Are these realistic figures for a fairly sound car?
Many thanks for any help!!
What are the pros/cons of both cars please? I would have a budget of around 16-18k for a 993, and the 964 I would like to pay around 12-13k so I can spend the rest on suspension/bbs wheels. Are these realistic figures for a fairly sound car?
Many thanks for any help!!
Hi There
I have owned a 964 in the past and currently have a 993. In many ways they are very similar cars IMHO. I prefer the look of the 993 myself. I have an early one so no varioram, but the engine is a bit more powerful than the 964, and the car is a bit better sorted overall as one would expect. I think that the 993 rides better from memory, though I am not sure why in terms of suspension revisions between the two models. Neither will dissapoint I am sure. If you secretly hanker after one rather than the other go with the hankering or you will akways be looking in the other direction.
I have heard that the C4 993 has a much better 4wd system than the 964.
993's are not cheap though you can find them at reasonable prices once the mileage has climbed a bit. I have a 185k mile car with no engine work so far so they do last.
Best of luck
I have owned a 964 in the past and currently have a 993. In many ways they are very similar cars IMHO. I prefer the look of the 993 myself. I have an early one so no varioram, but the engine is a bit more powerful than the 964, and the car is a bit better sorted overall as one would expect. I think that the 993 rides better from memory, though I am not sure why in terms of suspension revisions between the two models. Neither will dissapoint I am sure. If you secretly hanker after one rather than the other go with the hankering or you will akways be looking in the other direction.
I have heard that the C4 993 has a much better 4wd system than the 964.
993's are not cheap though you can find them at reasonable prices once the mileage has climbed a bit. I have a 185k mile car with no engine work so far so they do last.
Best of luck
Nick_MSM said:
As per title - I am considering selling my E46 M3 and buying an older 911 for a weekend toy. I have heard that although the 993 is more expensive to buy, it is actually cheaper to fix than a 964. Is this true?
What are the pros/cons of both cars please? I would have a budget of around 16-18k for a 993, and the 964 I would like to pay around 12-13k so I can spend the rest on suspension/bbs wheels. Are these realistic figures for a fairly sound car?
Many thanks for any help!!
Ive had both..993c2s and 993 tt..ive now got a 964 turbo which imo is far better built than the 993's were .From a driving point of view the 964 for some reason just feels more nimble on the road and compared to the 993tt has much nicer steering without the 4wd..try both but from my experience the 993 wasnt a huge step forward from a 964 and also lost a lot of its charm at the sametime.What are the pros/cons of both cars please? I would have a budget of around 16-18k for a 993, and the 964 I would like to pay around 12-13k so I can spend the rest on suspension/bbs wheels. Are these realistic figures for a fairly sound car?
Many thanks for any help!!
Servicing costs can be a bit higher with the 964 due to manual adjustment of the valves when required, but the are much cheaper to buy in the first place. Many of the known oil problems will also have been sorted over their lifetime, but many will still drip a bit (mine does), but don't get too hung up on this.
....wasn't a huge step forward!....lol...I think many here would disagree with that statement....please define "huge step forward"....I think the 993 is the definitive 911....IMHO.
Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
964 is the last of the aircooled 911s with the classic profile, whereas the 993 is the last of the aircooled 911s, full stop.
993 has the more sophisticated multilink rear suspension, but I love the feel of my 964 and the view from the driver's seat with those front wings is just iconic.
As someone has already said, the 993 has hydraulic tappets which need no annual adjustment, hence cheaper at service time than 964, but both cars are over 14 yrs old now, so all will need preventative maintenance.
Just remember that these were £50k cars when new, so added to the age, they will never be Mondeo money to maintain.
Buy the best one you can find and look out for rust as the galvanised bodies are not protected for ever and many are now starting to see rust in front and rear windscreen frames and wings, not to mention the dreaded 'kidney bowl' area
993 has the more sophisticated multilink rear suspension, but I love the feel of my 964 and the view from the driver's seat with those front wings is just iconic.
As someone has already said, the 993 has hydraulic tappets which need no annual adjustment, hence cheaper at service time than 964, but both cars are over 14 yrs old now, so all will need preventative maintenance.
Just remember that these were £50k cars when new, so added to the age, they will never be Mondeo money to maintain.
Buy the best one you can find and look out for rust as the galvanised bodies are not protected for ever and many are now starting to see rust in front and rear windscreen frames and wings, not to mention the dreaded 'kidney bowl' area
Edited by appletonn on Wednesday 4th November 10:50
On the basis that it is to be a weekend fun car, I would say go for the best and most appealing you can find. You can pick up 964s at appealing prices. Providing it's in good condition and has had all the necessary work carried out over the years. Both have bags of character.
Buy a good one and you will have bags of fun and enjoyment.
pp
Buy a good one and you will have bags of fun and enjoyment.
pp
I had a 964 which I replaced with a 993 a couple of years ago.
The 964 was a great car, fantastic looking, went well and sounded brilliant with a G pipe. However I had always had a hankering for a 993 and my 964 needed a substantial amount spending on it to make it spot on (engine re-build, clutch, paintwork).
In hindsight I should have spent £6k making the 964 perfect rather than £15k on swapping to the 993 (prices from 2 years ago when narrow bodied nice condition 993 were in the high £20k's). BUT I am sure I would have still hankered after a 993, and would still have had to put a considerable sum into the pot to swap.
I think things have changed now within the Porsche market.
The 993 has come down in price, whilst the 964 is more appreciated and has risen in price, making the differential narrower. If the price difference is now £5k it makes the choice harder.
The 964 is a great car, which if the mood takes you you could swap in the future for a 993, and I think the 964 would lose less money as they are such good value.
Either way they are both great cars.
The 964 was a great car, fantastic looking, went well and sounded brilliant with a G pipe. However I had always had a hankering for a 993 and my 964 needed a substantial amount spending on it to make it spot on (engine re-build, clutch, paintwork).
In hindsight I should have spent £6k making the 964 perfect rather than £15k on swapping to the 993 (prices from 2 years ago when narrow bodied nice condition 993 were in the high £20k's). BUT I am sure I would have still hankered after a 993, and would still have had to put a considerable sum into the pot to swap.
I think things have changed now within the Porsche market.
The 993 has come down in price, whilst the 964 is more appreciated and has risen in price, making the differential narrower. If the price difference is now £5k it makes the choice harder.
The 964 is a great car, which if the mood takes you you could swap in the future for a 993, and I think the 964 would lose less money as they are such good value.
Either way they are both great cars.
madala said:
....wasn't a huge step forward!....lol...I think many here would disagree with that statement....please define "huge step forward"....I think the 993 is the definitive 911....IMHO.
Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
Its all about opinions and i certainly dont have to justify mine to you..ive had 2 993's..3 996's and a 964..the worst series i have owned were the 993's on balance..not anywhere near as well made as the the 964 and if its a dynamic drive you want the 996 is a big step forward from a 993..as someone else put the gap between 964's and 993's appears to be closing up,i wonder why that is if the 993 is so much better?Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
With your budget I would get a 964. A high teens 993 will need a few things doing to it, and likely includes the suspension; if you drive a 993 on tired/original suspension, at best you'll be missing out on the true capabillities of the car, and at worst think you've made a mistake in purchase. Suspension is 'easily' changed, but you are looking at another 2k GBP all-in.
If we now assume a like-with-like comparison, both cars are superb, but a narrow-bodied 993 is definately a step-up on the 964 in terms of 'dynamics', as they made a great many changes, for instance using the 989 rear.
If 4wd is your thing, be aware the 964 has the 959 system (three diffs), whereas the 993 has a simpler viscous coupling solution.
If we now assume a like-with-like comparison, both cars are superb, but a narrow-bodied 993 is definately a step-up on the 964 in terms of 'dynamics', as they made a great many changes, for instance using the 989 rear.
If 4wd is your thing, be aware the 964 has the 959 system (three diffs), whereas the 993 has a simpler viscous coupling solution.
kayc said:
madala said:
....wasn't a huge step forward!....lol...I think many here would disagree with that statement....please define "huge step forward"....I think the 993 is the definitive 911....IMHO.
Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
Its all about opinions and i certainly dont have to justify mine to you..ive had 2 993's..3 996's and a 964..the worst series i have owned were the 993's on balance..not anywhere near as well made as the the 964 and if its a dynamic drive you want the 996 is a big step forward from a 993..as someone else put the gap between 964's and 993's appears to be closing up,i wonder why that is if the 993 is so much better?Just for starters they sorted out the rear suspension and also the 4WD system is about half as light as that of the 964 C4....IMO...the 993 is the car to go for if you have the dosh...good luck.....
p.s. Kevin....Time to update profile perhaps.....nice looking 993tt there at present......
Edited by madala on Wednesday 4th November 11:52
Orangecurry said:
If 4wd is your thing, be aware the 964 has the 959 system (three diffs), whereas the 993 has a simpler viscous coupling solution.
Other than weight though, the 964 system doesn't have very many issues. They are generally very reliable.I'd simply buy the model you prefer. Soon after I bought my 964 I was tempted to change to a 993 but couldn't justify the big difference in price. My tastes have changed a bit over the years though, and now I am happy I have a 964 - and given the choice between a 964 and a 993 (with same history / mileage etc) these days I'd have the 964 simply because I like the classic shape.
Driven both, own a 964C2. 993 a good bit more refined, with a far superior ride - even a standard '64 is pretty harsh,tyre noise is much higher in the 964.
Very little performance difference between a pre- varioram 993 & 964. Even the later varioram cars aren't that much quicker tbh. Overall though they are very similiar to drive. The 964 is a bit rawer, which can be a good or bad thing depending how you look at it.
Hydraulic tappets is one less maintenance issue for the later car, but the multilink suspension on the 993 makes access to some components more difficult than than 964, which could potentially push service prices up, depending what might need done. Both have the potential to leak oil (as all a/c 911's do) Service costs seem to be slightly higher for the 964, though I do most of the work myself.
Looks are entirely subjective, but ideally I'd have the front of the 964 with the rear of the 993!
Very little performance difference between a pre- varioram 993 & 964. Even the later varioram cars aren't that much quicker tbh. Overall though they are very similiar to drive. The 964 is a bit rawer, which can be a good or bad thing depending how you look at it.
Hydraulic tappets is one less maintenance issue for the later car, but the multilink suspension on the 993 makes access to some components more difficult than than 964, which could potentially push service prices up, depending what might need done. Both have the potential to leak oil (as all a/c 911's do) Service costs seem to be slightly higher for the 964, though I do most of the work myself.
Looks are entirely subjective, but ideally I'd have the front of the 964 with the rear of the 993!
[quote=HAB]Driven both, own a 964C2. 993 a good bit more refined, with a far superior ride - even a standard '64 is pretty harsh,tyre noise is much higher in the 964.
quote]
This is due to the rear suspension design, and on concrete surfaces can be quite intrusive I find. Tarmac is fine.
quote]
This is due to the rear suspension design, and on concrete surfaces can be quite intrusive I find. Tarmac is fine.
964 has the classic look and much more of the feel of an older 911. Noisy though and very tiring on a long run - 8 hours or more - but very rewarding most of the time.
993 has a compromise look - more contemporary but still a 911 - and is a lot easier to live with BUT IS AS BORING AS FKCU. I sold mine after 18 months because it was so dull compared to my 964. I bought a GT3 but still hanker after another 964.
Buy a 964 and save a few quid on the purchase price. Buy wisely and it won't cost you any more than a 993 to run and it will be a lot more fun.
ETA. You will also need to grow a beard if you buy a 993 and this will make you unattractive to women for many years. A 964 will make you seem like a hairy arsed man who is always in control and knows which side is up..............
993 has a compromise look - more contemporary but still a 911 - and is a lot easier to live with BUT IS AS BORING AS FKCU. I sold mine after 18 months because it was so dull compared to my 964. I bought a GT3 but still hanker after another 964.
Buy a 964 and save a few quid on the purchase price. Buy wisely and it won't cost you any more than a 993 to run and it will be a lot more fun.
ETA. You will also need to grow a beard if you buy a 993 and this will make you unattractive to women for many years. A 964 will make you seem like a hairy arsed man who is always in control and knows which side is up..............
Edited by rlw on Wednesday 4th November 20:35
HAB said:
Both have the potential to leak oil
slightly distorted phrasing IMHOThe 964 engine was originally designed as gasket-less. This was fixed under warranty with new pistons/cylinders/sealing ring as it didn't work too well (when the head distorted and oil leaked through a gap around the studs). Most cars would be fine now in this respect but the engine still has a reputation for leaking much more than other variants (esp. the 993) from the crankcase, chain covers, oil lines etc.. partially i think because of the changeover to rubber seals. Older cars often really need a top end rebuild with updated seals. Look at the 964 classifieds and the ads will often have a mention of 'top end rebuild xxx miles ago'
having said that, i wouldn't buy a 993 for 16-18k unless you have a nice wedge to spend on it thereafter so get yourself the best 64 you can and enjoy
jackal said:
HAB said:
Both have the potential to leak oil
slightly distorted phrasing IMHO...And that includes the 993, I've seen them with leaks from the usual 911 places (valve covers, pas drive seal, oil pressure sender unit, oil tank pipes, oil return pipes etc etc). imo all the air cooled derivatives need regular preventative maintenance, to keep on top of oil leaks.
No doubt there were issues with cylinder leaks on some early 964's, but as you say most were fixed under warranty, and those that weren't are very likely to've been fixed at one point, but its another of those million things which gets distorted by internet hysteria.
To the OP - 16-18k is too low for a decent 993, just right for a good '64!
HAB said:
jackal said:
HAB said:
Both have the potential to leak oil
slightly distorted phrasing IMHO...but the 964 has a greater reputation for leaking than the 993
does leak more than a 993
and will leak more than a 993
not a dealbreaker... its only a bit of oil after all.. but I wouldnt want your 'all AC engines leak' line to take the focus from the real world differences here between both models
Edited by jackal on Wednesday 4th November 23:20
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