Singer - 425bhp from an N/A 993
Discussion
On the 9M dyno anything is possible, in reality no it isn't
ENGINE
• 3.82-liter normally aspirated flat six 8000
rpm limit
• 9M (Ninemeister) machined from solid
cylinder heads
• 9M individual throttle bodies
• 9M 103mm pistons and cylinders
• 9M valve springs and retainers
• 9M camshaft
• 997 GT3 crankshaft
• 997 GT3R oil pump
• 997 GT3 titanium connecting rods
• Motec M800 ECU with data logging, launch/
traction control
• Lightweight wiring loom
• Lightweight stainless steel header / heat
exchanger system with 100 cell cats, Singer
stainless steel muffler
• 425 BHP / 340 lb. ft. torque
• 0-60 mph – 3.9 seconds
• 0-100 mph – 8.5 seconds
• Top speed 170+ mph
ENGINE
• 3.82-liter normally aspirated flat six 8000
rpm limit
• 9M (Ninemeister) machined from solid
cylinder heads
• 9M individual throttle bodies
• 9M 103mm pistons and cylinders
• 9M valve springs and retainers
• 9M camshaft
• 997 GT3 crankshaft
• 997 GT3R oil pump
• 997 GT3 titanium connecting rods
• Motec M800 ECU with data logging, launch/
traction control
• Lightweight wiring loom
• Lightweight stainless steel header / heat
exchanger system with 100 cell cats, Singer
stainless steel muffler
• 425 BHP / 340 lb. ft. torque
• 0-60 mph – 3.9 seconds
• 0-100 mph – 8.5 seconds
• Top speed 170+ mph
robmug said:
98C4S said:
No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure?375 Ponies absolute Max
What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air?
Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp.
You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger.
When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp.
And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer.
Edited by 98C4S on Thursday 5th November 09:58
98C4S said:
robmug said:
98C4S said:
No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure?375 Ponies absolute Max
What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air?
Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp.
You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger.
When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp.
And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer.
Edited by 98C4S on Thursday 5th November 09:58
That engine costs around £40,000. There are hours spent tuning it and the ECU (Motec M600-M800) alone costs £4,500.
I have less extreme version of that engine in my 911. My car pulls away from a 997 Turbo and GT3 RS on the track.
My car is dynoed at 406HP @7,600 rpm.
911teo said:
98C4S said:
robmug said:
98C4S said:
No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure?375 Ponies absolute Max
What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air?
Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp.
You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger.
When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp.
And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer.
Edited by 98C4S on Thursday 5th November 09:58
That engine costs around £40,000. There are hours spent tuning it and the ECU (Motec M600-M800) alone costs £4,500.
I have less extreme version of that engine in my 911. My car pulls away from a 997 Turbo and GT3 RS on the track.
My car is dynoed at 406HP @7,600 rpm.
Who cares... all dynos are different, different conditions and different fudge factors.
Dynos are only useful to make comparisons on changes/upgrades on the same car.
As I told you my car pulls away from a 997 GT3 RS.
A 997 GT3 RS is 1,375kg and 415HP
A 997 Turbo is 1,440kg and 530HP
My car weighs around 1,200-1,250KG.
You do the math...
Dynos are only useful to make comparisons on changes/upgrades on the same car.
As I told you my car pulls away from a 997 GT3 RS.
A 997 GT3 RS is 1,375kg and 415HP
A 997 Turbo is 1,440kg and 530HP
My car weighs around 1,200-1,250KG.
You do the math...
98C4S said:
No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
I disagree, it's possible to achieve that level of power from a 3.8 litre engine. A very highly tuned NA engine can produce a maximum of about 90lbft per litre, which in this case would equate to a maximum of 344.70lbft of torque. Where that is produced will depend most significantly on the cam profile and timing, but if it's produced at the rev limit at 8000rpm then that will equate to 524bhp at the crank. 425bhp is therefore eminently possible from a 3.82 litre NA engine with an 8krpm rev limit. Whether or not Singer have managed to do so with their engine is another matter, and will largely depend on how well the head flows in order to optimise VE, but it's eminently doable.375 Ponies absolute Max
DJB321 said:
98C4S said:
No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
I disagree, it's possible to achieve that level of power from a 3.8 litre engine. A very highly tuned NA engine can produce a maximum of about 90lbft per litre, which in this case would equate to a maximum of 344.70lbft of torque. Where that is produced will depend most significantly on the cam profile and timing, but if it's produced at the rev limit at 8000rpm then that will equate to 524bhp at the crank. 425bhp is therefore eminently possible from a 3.82 litre NA engine with an 8krpm rev limit. Whether or not Singer have managed to do so with their engine is another matter, and will largely depend on how well the head flows in order to optimise VE, but it's eminently doable.375 Ponies absolute Max
The torque to power conversion (power=torque*revs/5250) is, I believe, fairly well known. If you need a reference, try Google - there are plenty of places where that formula exists. As for the maximum torque per litre, that's from my experience of race engines. As for the Rennlist article, it doesn't really help in this case but if anything it supports what I've said. BMEP = 150.8 x torque (in lbft)/capacity (in cubic inches) - again, if you want a reference, just Google it, it's hardly arcane knowledge. A 3.82 litre engine has a capacity of 233ci. So BMEP for that engine is torque * 150.8 / 233, which equates to BMEP = torque x 0.64.
Plug in my hypothetical figures, with torque at 344lbft, and that equates to a BMEP of 220. High, undoubtedly, hence my reference to 'a very highly tuned engine'.
Even with a less extreme BMEP figure, 425bhp is still eminently achievable. Let's take a BMEP figure of 200. That would give a maximum torque of 312.5 lbft, or 82 lbft per litre. That is definitely achievable - a well tuned VX/Duratec/K-series can get to 85lbft per litre. That would mean, if maximum torque is produced at the revlimit at 8000rpm, that maximum power is 475bhp. Still well above the figure claimed.
Plug in my hypothetical figures, with torque at 344lbft, and that equates to a BMEP of 220. High, undoubtedly, hence my reference to 'a very highly tuned engine'.
Even with a less extreme BMEP figure, 425bhp is still eminently achievable. Let's take a BMEP figure of 200. That would give a maximum torque of 312.5 lbft, or 82 lbft per litre. That is definitely achievable - a well tuned VX/Duratec/K-series can get to 85lbft per litre. That would mean, if maximum torque is produced at the revlimit at 8000rpm, that maximum power is 475bhp. Still well above the figure claimed.
But max torque won't be at 8000rpm, more likely around 5300rpm like one of his similar builds http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/964-forum/33...
And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
JBL930 said:
But max torque won't be at 8000rpm, more likely around 5300rpm like one of his similar builds http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/964-forum/33...
And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
Depends. Where max torque will be will depend, largely, on the cam profile and timing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be at 8000rpm - plenty of engines out there have maximum power produced at 8000rpm or higher. 3 I've got fitted in my cars, for starters. Equally, I don't know where you've got the max BMEP figure of 180 from, other than thin air. If it's got custom cylinder heads then there's no reason in principle why it shouldn't have a BMEP of 200, although whether it does in fact have a BMEP of 200 I couldn't say.And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
If max BMEP is 180 and maximum torque is produced at 5300rpm then maximum power will be 283bhp up to 5300rpm, although max power may be greater higher up the rev range even though the torque is lower. However, if the cylinder heads flow well, so maximum BMEP's higher, and if the cam timing is more aggressive, so max torque is produced higher up the rev range, then it could be significantly higher.
The fact is, I don't know and you don't know what this engine will actually produce. However, there is no reason in principle why a 3.82l NA engine should not be capable of producing 425bhp.
EFA...
Edited by DJB321 on Thursday 5th November 13:18
DJB321 said:
JBL930 said:
But max torque won't be at 8000rpm, more likely around 5300rpm like one of his similar builds http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/964-forum/33...
And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
Depends. Where max torque will be will depend, largely, on the cam profile and timing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be at 8000rpm - plenty of engines out there have maximum power produced at 8000rpm or higher. 3 I've got fitted in my cars, for starters. Equally, I don't know where you've got the max BMEP figure of 180 from, other than thin air. If it's got custom cylinder heads then there's no reason in principle why it shouldn't have a BMEP of 200, although whether it does in fact have a BMEP of 200 I couldn't say.And the BMEP will be max 180 in reality
If max BMEP is 180 and maximum torque is produced at 5300rpm then maximum power will be 283bhp. However, if the cylinder heads flow well, so maximum BMEP's higher, and if the cam timing is more aggressive, so max torque is produced higher up the rev range, then it could be significantly higher.
The fact is, I don't know and you don't know what this engine will actually produce. However, there is no reason in principle why a 3.82l NA engine should not be capable of producing 425bhp.
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