Calling Caterham owners/former owners
Discussion
So a few Caterham owners on here and a fair few former owners- & interested to know how you felt your cars compared to your porker- particually to 964 & 993RS porkers etc that I am used to the performance of.
For example Murray- how does your R300 compare to the 993RS? ok an R300 is out of budget at the mo but R300 spec is not as far as im aware a million miles from an older Superlight?
Dom your x-flow's vs RS??
etc etc
Cheers.
lizard
For example Murray- how does your R300 compare to the 993RS? ok an R300 is out of budget at the mo but R300 spec is not as far as im aware a million miles from an older Superlight?
Dom your x-flow's vs RS??
etc etc
Cheers.
lizard
The 964 & 993 RS that you are used to ? in comparison to a caterham ?
You still take the same section of the sofa as normal,
but when the car selection part comes up on the PS2 you select Caterham not Porsche
In the real world you will find a caterham faster lighter & less practical than a Golf Gti mk2.
I had both in 1987 when they were about a year old and Playstation didn't exist, the Lotus twin cam caterham was on horrid 185/70/13....Thankfully tyre technology has also moved on for the better
You still take the same section of the sofa as normal,
but when the car selection part comes up on the PS2 you select Caterham not Porsche
In the real world you will find a caterham faster lighter & less practical than a Golf Gti mk2.
I had both in 1987 when they were about a year old and Playstation didn't exist, the Lotus twin cam caterham was on horrid 185/70/13....Thankfully tyre technology has also moved on for the better
R300 'feels' much faster than the RS. Not sure how much there is in it really but subjectively the R300 is a much more intense sensation. Also, good though the feedback from an RS is the Caterham is nothing short of amazing in this respect. But if your doing any sort of road miles at all the RS wins hands down. Not much fun driving to/from trackdays in an R300 as you arrive feeling shattered.
R300 is almost in line with the old superlight spec (which you can pick up from about 15k) albeit with a slight increase in bhp.
Jim
R300 is almost in line with the old superlight spec (which you can pick up from about 15k) albeit with a slight increase in bhp.
Jim
The 964RS gets CLOSE to being as nimble, as agile and as much fun as a Caterham.
But it is still no Caterham.
The seven is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned, and if a normal sized road car gets close to it (like the 964RS, a Schnitzer track spec M3, Elise etc) then that car has supercar status in it.
An F355 F1 is a wallowy barge in comparison - and that isn't an insult to the sublime 355, just a testimony to how surreal the seven can be.
It has only been matched in my mind by a Formula First race car I drove. It is effectively a single seat race car with number plates.
I should point out that some cars can grip better (especially in the wet), most cars go faster on the motorway and all cars are more practical. But in terms of handling purity I rate it slightly above the Elise, which is also very good.
In terms of fun and running costs, nothing else comes close. Back to back at Bedford, the Caterham was more fun than an Ultima GTR, as you could throw it around more and it was a doddle to drive. I wouldn't fancy drifiting the Ult like a seven. Running cost wise you have skinny tyres and metro engines to worry about
Insurance is also very reasonable - half the cost of a 944 cabriolet when I was 24.
I would also say that you get 95% of the Caterham experience with an 8k crossflow with 4 speed box and live axle, as you do with a brand new 1.8k series worth 20k. The Superlights (or Rxxx range) are very special of course, but all caterhams are fantastic.
Down side I'd say that carb cars can be a bugger to run compared to fuel injection ones, even if they can have more character. Also, they don't leak badly but aren't bone dry if you leave them in the open without a cover, some of the parts are froma cheaper parts bin than Porsche would go for, and you will be a squeeze to fit in as you probably know. Oh yes, other cars can miss you as you're quite small and if they crash into you it will hurt a lot.
But overall, I can't rate Caterhams highly enough
But it is still no Caterham.
The seven is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned, and if a normal sized road car gets close to it (like the 964RS, a Schnitzer track spec M3, Elise etc) then that car has supercar status in it.
An F355 F1 is a wallowy barge in comparison - and that isn't an insult to the sublime 355, just a testimony to how surreal the seven can be.
It has only been matched in my mind by a Formula First race car I drove. It is effectively a single seat race car with number plates.
I should point out that some cars can grip better (especially in the wet), most cars go faster on the motorway and all cars are more practical. But in terms of handling purity I rate it slightly above the Elise, which is also very good.
In terms of fun and running costs, nothing else comes close. Back to back at Bedford, the Caterham was more fun than an Ultima GTR, as you could throw it around more and it was a doddle to drive. I wouldn't fancy drifiting the Ult like a seven. Running cost wise you have skinny tyres and metro engines to worry about
Insurance is also very reasonable - half the cost of a 944 cabriolet when I was 24. I would also say that you get 95% of the Caterham experience with an 8k crossflow with 4 speed box and live axle, as you do with a brand new 1.8k series worth 20k. The Superlights (or Rxxx range) are very special of course, but all caterhams are fantastic.
Down side I'd say that carb cars can be a bugger to run compared to fuel injection ones, even if they can have more character. Also, they don't leak badly but aren't bone dry if you leave them in the open without a cover, some of the parts are froma cheaper parts bin than Porsche would go for, and you will be a squeeze to fit in as you probably know. Oh yes, other cars can miss you as you're quite small and if they crash into you it will hurt a lot.
But overall, I can't rate Caterhams highly enough
My R500 was quicker in a straight line to about 110 than the 996 turbo I now have, but after that the turbo just continues to accelerate and the power curve drops off on the Caterham.
On corners there is no comparison - the Caterham is so light, one can brake VERY late and take the corner at obscene speeds (in the dry, on warm, sticky tyres).
On tracks such as Oulton, Combe, Goodwood etc the Caterham is in a different class, but at Silverstone, and to some extent Donington with fast, wide tracks and sweeping corners there is less difference in lap times between a Caterham and a 'hard' Porker like the GT3.
On the road the R500 was a dog (this is definitely a setup thing - and all Caterhams can be set up as soft or hard as you require). But setup aside, it either wanted to go or stop - anything else just pi55ed it off. In traffic it was a joke (this is I think a '500' thing). As for setup, well if you do set it up for road it's a bit naff on track, so you have to decide if you want to spend time changing roll bars, tyres etc before you track it.
On a dry sunny day on an open road the Seven is about as much fun as you can have with your trousers on. The rest of the time, (especially in the wet on the road) I'll take the turbo please. (But I know of lots of bods who use it as an everyday car - though I suspect they are completely mad).
One last thing, in the Seven (on the road) you feel like you're in the 'Railway Children' - people smile and wave - it's a very different experience in the Porsche!
Just read this back - and it's a bit jumbled... but I hope it's been of some help!
Steve
>> Edited by getcarter on Tuesday 27th January 10:36
On corners there is no comparison - the Caterham is so light, one can brake VERY late and take the corner at obscene speeds (in the dry, on warm, sticky tyres).
On tracks such as Oulton, Combe, Goodwood etc the Caterham is in a different class, but at Silverstone, and to some extent Donington with fast, wide tracks and sweeping corners there is less difference in lap times between a Caterham and a 'hard' Porker like the GT3.
On the road the R500 was a dog (this is definitely a setup thing - and all Caterhams can be set up as soft or hard as you require). But setup aside, it either wanted to go or stop - anything else just pi55ed it off. In traffic it was a joke (this is I think a '500' thing). As for setup, well if you do set it up for road it's a bit naff on track, so you have to decide if you want to spend time changing roll bars, tyres etc before you track it.
On a dry sunny day on an open road the Seven is about as much fun as you can have with your trousers on. The rest of the time, (especially in the wet on the road) I'll take the turbo please. (But I know of lots of bods who use it as an everyday car - though I suspect they are completely mad).
One last thing, in the Seven (on the road) you feel like you're in the 'Railway Children' - people smile and wave - it's a very different experience in the Porsche!
Just read this back - and it's a bit jumbled... but I hope it's been of some help!
Steve
>> Edited by getcarter on Tuesday 27th January 10:36
Who are you calling mad 
.... I commuted for over 2 years in total in my two separate sevens (sole cars as well!).
Rain, shine, snow (the hood can take a good few inches with just mild sagging), trips to the supermarket and to IKEA (put the hood on after you've packed it to maximise capacity).
.... I commuted for over 2 years in total in my two separate sevens (sole cars as well!). Rain, shine, snow (the hood can take a good few inches with just mild sagging), trips to the supermarket and to IKEA (put the hood on after you've packed it to maximise capacity).
Never been in an RS, but I did have an SLR some time ago. First question Ig- will you fit in one? Mate of mine about your size *just* managed to squeeze himself in (Vaseline is marvellous stuff). When he got out I swear I heard a faint 'pop'.
Agree with Steve. IMO it's not a go-kart handling wise, more like a motor bike: goes and stops very quickly. It's also very small, so on wide roads you can overtake without crossing the lines. On dry days it's an absolute hoot. And you can have hours of fun playing with the popping and banging on the over-run. No question, kids love it too.
The flip side is that on a wet murky day, it's nothing short of a horrible place to be. Especially with the hood up, when it feels like a damp and very noisy coffin.
Agree with Steve. IMO it's not a go-kart handling wise, more like a motor bike: goes and stops very quickly. It's also very small, so on wide roads you can overtake without crossing the lines. On dry days it's an absolute hoot. And you can have hours of fun playing with the popping and banging on the over-run. No question, kids love it too.
The flip side is that on a wet murky day, it's nothing short of a horrible place to be. Especially with the hood up, when it feels like a damp and very noisy coffin.
Running costs as Dom said are fantastic. Can buy a spare set of rims for £240, fit a set of part worn slicks at £80 a set of four.
I think my R300 has a similar type mapping to getcarters R500 as that is similar on the road; it doesn't like going slowly and can be very emabarrassing in town kangarooing and stalling.
I think my R300 has a similar type mapping to getcarters R500 as that is similar on the road; it doesn't like going slowly and can be very emabarrassing in town kangarooing and stalling.
Iguana, not much more I can add - all sensible advice, but as you know, even 140 bhp doesn't feel that quick.
I forgot to mention to you that Caterham have been offering a Supersport kit for the old EU2 engines that gives a power increase to 160 bhp. Kit is about £3k or so including fitting and makes a nice bolt-on to a standard 1600 Roadsport, which can be had for about £10k....or buy Johnny Le Roux's ex Elise VHPD engine and throw it in for instant SLR performance!
The R300 map is crap, but I think Knowley has plans for this - R300.com - but then the SLR map is "fun" too, but can be totally sorted by an Emerald and the magic hands of Dave & Karl!
I went from 964 RS to 1.6 140 bhp Supersport and then to 190 bhp SLR and now to 200 bhp homebrew. The Superport was fun, but too slow and the SLR felt much quicker than the RS up to 100 or so and was obviously a lot more "cammy" than the RS.
The problem with driving a Caterham is that handling is all on these - if the suspension geometry is out the car will feel absolutely terrible - bit like Dom's RS used to feel like before they removed those old Escort bushes
. As Steve says, out of the box most are crap - mate of mine had an R500 and swears that the reason for him wiping it out at a circuit was down to its handling...So the best upgrade is adjustable platforms and flat flooring/corner weighting. Just look at the car that Evo tested recently for proof.
Finally I will say that IMHO a good road/track setup can be easily achieved on a Caterham provided someone who knows what they are doing does the work.
I forgot to mention to you that Caterham have been offering a Supersport kit for the old EU2 engines that gives a power increase to 160 bhp. Kit is about £3k or so including fitting and makes a nice bolt-on to a standard 1600 Roadsport, which can be had for about £10k....or buy Johnny Le Roux's ex Elise VHPD engine and throw it in for instant SLR performance!
The R300 map is crap, but I think Knowley has plans for this - R300.com - but then the SLR map is "fun" too, but can be totally sorted by an Emerald and the magic hands of Dave & Karl!
I went from 964 RS to 1.6 140 bhp Supersport and then to 190 bhp SLR and now to 200 bhp homebrew. The Superport was fun, but too slow and the SLR felt much quicker than the RS up to 100 or so and was obviously a lot more "cammy" than the RS.
The problem with driving a Caterham is that handling is all on these - if the suspension geometry is out the car will feel absolutely terrible - bit like Dom's RS used to feel like before they removed those old Escort bushes
. As Steve says, out of the box most are crap - mate of mine had an R500 and swears that the reason for him wiping it out at a circuit was down to its handling...So the best upgrade is adjustable platforms and flat flooring/corner weighting. Just look at the car that Evo tested recently for proof. Finally I will say that IMHO a good road/track setup can be easily achieved on a Caterham provided someone who knows what they are doing does the work.
I had a supersprint 135bhp for a few years then a SuperlightR 190 bhp for 2 years.
Agree with the posts above. A cheep low powered 7 will give you as much if nor more fun and wont be much slower then a normal 966.
My SLR was amazing. I was keeping up with a v.fast 996 gT3 which was being driven v well at Goodwood a few years back. It would whip anything on the road and most cars on track.
The 7 (tyres) will out corner any porker on normal road tyres. Its just the straights that 7 lose out a bit. Up to about 100mph the 7 will be good. much above that not really. Braking is better in the 7 less weight, cornering is faster (tyres & weight) driving in the wet can be difficult and will be much slower.
My ex SLR which has been worked on the suspension is up for sale from my friend who got it from me. I think hes after about £17k. Well sorted car with all the extras and bits and bobs. slicks/rain/road tyres etc
I used to do 10000 miles each year in the 7 - just weekend driving. I found it fine for the road, no problems in town, yes it likes to be opened up.
Pure driving. Pure fun.
You have got to get one once in your life. I had mine looked after at P Harvey in Shorham, (from memory) so long as the suspension is set up right its unbeatable.- unlesss its rains. !
Agree with the posts above. A cheep low powered 7 will give you as much if nor more fun and wont be much slower then a normal 966.
My SLR was amazing. I was keeping up with a v.fast 996 gT3 which was being driven v well at Goodwood a few years back. It would whip anything on the road and most cars on track.
The 7 (tyres) will out corner any porker on normal road tyres. Its just the straights that 7 lose out a bit. Up to about 100mph the 7 will be good. much above that not really. Braking is better in the 7 less weight, cornering is faster (tyres & weight) driving in the wet can be difficult and will be much slower.
My ex SLR which has been worked on the suspension is up for sale from my friend who got it from me. I think hes after about £17k. Well sorted car with all the extras and bits and bobs. slicks/rain/road tyres etc
I used to do 10000 miles each year in the 7 - just weekend driving. I found it fine for the road, no problems in town, yes it likes to be opened up.
Pure driving. Pure fun.
You have got to get one once in your life. I had mine looked after at P Harvey in Shorham, (from memory) so long as the suspension is set up right its unbeatable.- unlesss its rains. !
I bought a superlight R from Caterham in 2000 or early 2001 and did about 12,000 miles in 18 months without a fault. It needed some money spending on it, but Caterham offered me pretty much what I paid for it in part exchange for an R500. This was post-Y2K IT salesman stuff, so I didn't hesitate.
I was made redundant about 2 weeks before the kit turned up, but this was a bit of a blessing i disguise, as I had another job to go to. Anyway, to cut a long story short, building the car was fine until i got to the R500 specific bits - oil system, engine wiring, cooling, etc. At the time, these were utterly undocumented, and the build became a nightmare. Although Caterham were helpful, it was a pain needing to trailer the car to Dartford from Maidenhead to get anything sorted.
The car passed the SVA, and I drove it for about 500 miles, but I never had an confidence in something I had build, and I had lost confidence in Caterham. I eventually sold the car for about £29,000, so someone got a bargain and I made a monster loss (although it wasn't too bad, as I was given £3k too much for the SLR, and it needed about £1k spending on it). So I can't really complain.
I decided to avoid track days and stuff, and got a Boxster S, but never liked it. The 964RS is fairly close to a useable Caterham - OK for taking to a client or to the shops, but pretty uncompromised on the track too. I think it is about the most desirable combination around at the moment, especially as they should be almost depreciation proof.
I am very much a Caterham man, and miss them, especially the bomb-proof SLR. Ideally I would find space for the 964RS and a cheap early superlight in the garage, or maybe a 968CS, or....or
I was made redundant about 2 weeks before the kit turned up, but this was a bit of a blessing i disguise, as I had another job to go to. Anyway, to cut a long story short, building the car was fine until i got to the R500 specific bits - oil system, engine wiring, cooling, etc. At the time, these were utterly undocumented, and the build became a nightmare. Although Caterham were helpful, it was a pain needing to trailer the car to Dartford from Maidenhead to get anything sorted.
The car passed the SVA, and I drove it for about 500 miles, but I never had an confidence in something I had build, and I had lost confidence in Caterham. I eventually sold the car for about £29,000, so someone got a bargain and I made a monster loss (although it wasn't too bad, as I was given £3k too much for the SLR, and it needed about £1k spending on it). So I can't really complain.
I decided to avoid track days and stuff, and got a Boxster S, but never liked it. The 964RS is fairly close to a useable Caterham - OK for taking to a client or to the shops, but pretty uncompromised on the track too. I think it is about the most desirable combination around at the moment, especially as they should be almost depreciation proof.
I am very much a Caterham man, and miss them, especially the bomb-proof SLR. Ideally I would find space for the 964RS and a cheap early superlight in the garage, or maybe a 968CS, or....or
My preference is for Caterhams because of heritage and more purity in design etc. I looked at getting one before my Caterhams. I think the Caterham just has slightly more quality to it, but performance wise they are very similar. Too often this is dismissed as 'snob factor', but I genuinely think that a Caterham is a slightly nicer car than a same spec Westie - and the prices for a basic kit are surprisingly similar.
But where Caterham are floundering with their next move and plans for the 21st century, Chris Smith has launched the amazing XTR2. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Westfield outlive, or even end up taking over, Caterham if they show this kind of initiative.
But where Caterham are floundering with their next move and plans for the 21st century, Chris Smith has launched the amazing XTR2. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Westfield outlive, or even end up taking over, Caterham if they show this kind of initiative.
domster said:Obviously, the quality is dependent on the time and effort the person building it has put in and the quality of the independent components. Most Caterhams are factory built so the standard is pretty much consistent but most Westfields are home built so the quality can vary somewhat. Having said that, a well-built home-built car is gererally a much better put together car (irrespective of make of car) as it will often use much better components. So you might need to view more Westfields than Caterham before you buy, but you should end up with at least as well-built a car.
I think the Caterham just has slightly more quality to it, but performance wise they are very similar. Too often this is dismissed as 'snob factor', but I genuinely think that a Caterham is a slightly nicer car than a same spec Westie - and the prices for a basic kit are surprisingly similar.
In terms of performance it comes down to power/weight as always. A colleague's VX Supersprint(?) is 120bhp - a standard Westfield would come in around 150bhp
Caterham kits are much more expensive for similar spec (and power).
domster said:It's the XTR4 now
But where Caterham are floundering with their next move and plans for the 21st century, Chris Smith has launched the amazing XTR2. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Westfield outlive, or even end up taking over, Caterham if they show this kind of initiative.
Westfields and Caterhams are very similar yet each has pros and cons over the other. I know with Westfields that if I ripped my Dunnel engine out and replaced it with say a Duratec it wouldn't be a problem. But if I did that with a Caterham would I kill the resale value? My colleague did say that he wouldn't tweak his Caterham too much as it would destroy the identity of the car. I'm just happy to keep modifying mine as and when finances allow.
They're both fantastic on the track though!
LOL, the Caterham vs Westie argument is as old as the Porsche vs TVR one. I'm sure you could spend a month on blatchat attacking and counter-attacking
However, in terms of design and some of the components used, I still maintain Caterham has the edge. I suppose the lower weight of the Caterham also reflects a marginally higher purity of design. I just like the minimal amount of GRP on my sevens I suppose.
Also, if you get a starter kit, the base prices are very similar. I was surprised myself. Generally you are right that you can get a higher spec westie for the same dosh as a lower spec Caterham, but the starter kits were similar (although the westie does have IRS at the back).
Resale may also be a bit better on the Caterham sevens, but they are more expensive to buy to begin with. So swings and roundabouts.
Anyway, still a great car. I think I have probably been brainwashed by 3 years of Low Flying tho'
PS I think handbuilt cars may be better than factory built cars in many ways, apart from the Ultima I will be attempting to build soon, though
However, in terms of design and some of the components used, I still maintain Caterham has the edge. I suppose the lower weight of the Caterham also reflects a marginally higher purity of design. I just like the minimal amount of GRP on my sevens I suppose.
Also, if you get a starter kit, the base prices are very similar. I was surprised myself. Generally you are right that you can get a higher spec westie for the same dosh as a lower spec Caterham, but the starter kits were similar (although the westie does have IRS at the back).
Resale may also be a bit better on the Caterham sevens, but they are more expensive to buy to begin with. So swings and roundabouts.
Anyway, still a great car. I think I have probably been brainwashed by 3 years of Low Flying tho'
PS I think handbuilt cars may be better than factory built cars in many ways, apart from the Ultima I will be attempting to build soon, though
I have several Westfield owning friends, and they were all amazed at the quality of the Caterham product and the aftersales service available in comparison to Caterham. I pretty much built mine in a weekend and I am a complete muppet. You might spend that long doing the brake pipes on a westfield.
I don't see that there is any comparison between Caterhams and Westfields. if you are looking to buy new or nearly new, very few people seem to consider both.
Interestingly, how many people say they would buy a Westfield rather than a Caterham if they could afford it? Or an XTR4 rather than a Radical? Not many I bet. And when you bear in mind that a Caterham will be cheaper to run than a Westfield of similar performance (very little depreciation versus quite a lot).
I'm not critisizing the Westifield product, I just don't really think it is aiming at (precisely) the same market as the Caterham.
I don't see that there is any comparison between Caterhams and Westfields. if you are looking to buy new or nearly new, very few people seem to consider both.
Interestingly, how many people say they would buy a Westfield rather than a Caterham if they could afford it? Or an XTR4 rather than a Radical? Not many I bet. And when you bear in mind that a Caterham will be cheaper to run than a Westfield of similar performance (very little depreciation versus quite a lot).
I'm not critisizing the Westifield product, I just don't really think it is aiming at (precisely) the same market as the Caterham.
Cheers chaps,
Good to hear some more opinions, im sold on the whole Caterham idea, & yes I do fit- it is quite tight tho! need pedals on max extention & tillets seem to be a no no for legroom, but bench seat fine, & even the newer style leather seats are bareable- do realy need a detachable wheel tho. Must say Dr Kev Im a bit worried about your preference for Vaseline tho- anything you need to tell us…
My only gripe is that after being in a few Caterhams now, even the Supersport K series cars (1.4 & 1.6) don’t have the sort of kick in the back im after. (the ever helpful Caterham guru that is Rubystone had of course told me many times that I would need 160+bhp to keep me happy, & Clubsport said the same- but do I listen….
)
I don’t mean that the lower powered cars are not capable of very decent lap times on track- the amasing handling & high corner speeds see to that, its more that on the road- even in the sub 100mph area I was a bit disapointed.
My theory being- no point in borrowing scrimping & saving to buy somat that is a heck of a lot of £ on your budget & then having something that doesnt make you a little bit scared when you give it full beans after all
I've been in R500 & SLR & I know they would give me the punch im after but short of selling a kidney I cant afford it (and I’m saving that kidney to buy Murray’s RS
I must say a big Caterham plus point for me is that even Badger hunter Dom- who seems not to resist throwing his Porsches into the countryside- regardless of whether they are front or rear engined & if they somehow escape that ordeal then he then sets fire to the thing seems to have survived unscathed with 2 Caterhams.
Good to hear some more opinions, im sold on the whole Caterham idea, & yes I do fit- it is quite tight tho! need pedals on max extention & tillets seem to be a no no for legroom, but bench seat fine, & even the newer style leather seats are bareable- do realy need a detachable wheel tho. Must say Dr Kev Im a bit worried about your preference for Vaseline tho- anything you need to tell us…
My only gripe is that after being in a few Caterhams now, even the Supersport K series cars (1.4 & 1.6) don’t have the sort of kick in the back im after. (the ever helpful Caterham guru that is Rubystone had of course told me many times that I would need 160+bhp to keep me happy, & Clubsport said the same- but do I listen….
) I don’t mean that the lower powered cars are not capable of very decent lap times on track- the amasing handling & high corner speeds see to that, its more that on the road- even in the sub 100mph area I was a bit disapointed.
My theory being- no point in borrowing scrimping & saving to buy somat that is a heck of a lot of £ on your budget & then having something that doesnt make you a little bit scared when you give it full beans after all
I've been in R500 & SLR & I know they would give me the punch im after but short of selling a kidney I cant afford it (and I’m saving that kidney to buy Murray’s RS
I must say a big Caterham plus point for me is that even Badger hunter Dom- who seems not to resist throwing his Porsches into the countryside- regardless of whether they are front or rear engined
& if they somehow escape that ordeal then he then sets fire to the thing seems to have survived unscathed with 2 Caterhams. Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff