General Porsche Costs - and 991/998 vs 997 depreciation
Discussion
I am pretty sure I will be buying my first 911 next year. Sooner the better but I am in no rush. I walked into a Porsche dealer the other day and the lady gave me the hard sell on a 911 GTS. So my choices are currently:
1) 997 turbo 2008 - this is probably my favoured choice, as i like the look of the turbo's (each to their own), and its less "common" and given its something i am looking to get out of my system was thinking just get the fastest one. I need four seats, so can't be a GT3/2, but I am not too keen on 4 wheel drive.
2) 997 C2S 2009 - cheaper than a 911 turbo and seems like you can get a PDK version aswell. also it will give me all the performance i will ever be able to get out of it its not as if i am the stig. But is fairly common, not that that is a problem
3) 911 GTS - expensive (more than option 1) but a nice blend of looks and driving pleasure. also its new and limited edition so would get spec;ed just as i want it, however buying new also means the greatest depreciation i assume
4) final option is to wait for the 991/998 in autumn 2011
Now i know the old maxim is if you have to ask how much it costs you can;t afford it, but in reality this is a crazy amount of money to spend on a car, and unfortunately I don't have that much money to waste. Therefore the decision I make will be based in largely on cost. Which means i have to go for 2), but in reality one of the main costs of the car is depreciation. So I don;t want to buy a 911GTS for example and find out in Autumn 2011 (991/998 release date apparently) they drop an additional 10k straight away. So was hoping someone could help with the following sums:
COSTS
1) DEPRECIATION
its difficult for me to gauge depreciation costs per year as no 2 cars are exactly the same. But seems like depreciation is 5k to 10k per year. So lets take 7.5k as the average. Now I don;t mind losing 15k on depreciation after 2 yrs (i won;t have any choice after all). But what is the view on how/whether the 991/998 will effect the existing 997 prices. Questions:
- What is depreciation as soon as you drive a brand new 911 out of the garage?
- turbo vs C2S depreciation, is there a difference?
- What is the view on additional, if any, depreciation due to the 991/998 release. How will 997 and 997 GTS be affected?
- What is the expectation of yearly mileage on a 911? 10k?
2) INSURANCE
I guess for me will be 2+k, but then i have 6 darned points and also 5 yr no claims
3) SERVICE COSTS
I think its £600 for a major service and £400 for a minor
4) TYRES
£1000 fro all 4 every 10,000 miles?
4) BRAKE DISCS
No idea on this one
5) GENERAL SCRATCHES/SCUFFS
I assume porsche charge a fortune for this, but say a 2 inch scratch how much to get fixed? £600 my best guess.
6) WARRANTY
Porsche garages giving 2 year warranty, which is worth 2k to 3k I guess? Which means why would I buy private unless it was more than a 3k discount to the official porsche garage?
7) MECHANICAL REPAIRS
On average what is the yearly repair cost not covered by warranty? I assume cllse to zero.
Thanks for any advice/comments/criticism.
1) 997 turbo 2008 - this is probably my favoured choice, as i like the look of the turbo's (each to their own), and its less "common" and given its something i am looking to get out of my system was thinking just get the fastest one. I need four seats, so can't be a GT3/2, but I am not too keen on 4 wheel drive.
2) 997 C2S 2009 - cheaper than a 911 turbo and seems like you can get a PDK version aswell. also it will give me all the performance i will ever be able to get out of it its not as if i am the stig. But is fairly common, not that that is a problem
3) 911 GTS - expensive (more than option 1) but a nice blend of looks and driving pleasure. also its new and limited edition so would get spec;ed just as i want it, however buying new also means the greatest depreciation i assume
4) final option is to wait for the 991/998 in autumn 2011
Now i know the old maxim is if you have to ask how much it costs you can;t afford it, but in reality this is a crazy amount of money to spend on a car, and unfortunately I don't have that much money to waste. Therefore the decision I make will be based in largely on cost. Which means i have to go for 2), but in reality one of the main costs of the car is depreciation. So I don;t want to buy a 911GTS for example and find out in Autumn 2011 (991/998 release date apparently) they drop an additional 10k straight away. So was hoping someone could help with the following sums:
COSTS
1) DEPRECIATION
its difficult for me to gauge depreciation costs per year as no 2 cars are exactly the same. But seems like depreciation is 5k to 10k per year. So lets take 7.5k as the average. Now I don;t mind losing 15k on depreciation after 2 yrs (i won;t have any choice after all). But what is the view on how/whether the 991/998 will effect the existing 997 prices. Questions:
- What is depreciation as soon as you drive a brand new 911 out of the garage?
- turbo vs C2S depreciation, is there a difference?
- What is the view on additional, if any, depreciation due to the 991/998 release. How will 997 and 997 GTS be affected?
- What is the expectation of yearly mileage on a 911? 10k?
2) INSURANCE
I guess for me will be 2+k, but then i have 6 darned points and also 5 yr no claims
3) SERVICE COSTS
I think its £600 for a major service and £400 for a minor
4) TYRES
£1000 fro all 4 every 10,000 miles?
4) BRAKE DISCS
No idea on this one
5) GENERAL SCRATCHES/SCUFFS
I assume porsche charge a fortune for this, but say a 2 inch scratch how much to get fixed? £600 my best guess.
6) WARRANTY
Porsche garages giving 2 year warranty, which is worth 2k to 3k I guess? Which means why would I buy private unless it was more than a 3k discount to the official porsche garage?
7) MECHANICAL REPAIRS
On average what is the yearly repair cost not covered by warranty? I assume cllse to zero.
Thanks for any advice/comments/criticism.
Edited by Benkhan on Monday 8th November 23:26
mate you think too much, you remind me of my brother. your the kind of guy that if someone gave you a gun, you would sit there and figure out how it works rather than just shoot the damn thing.
The moral of the story is just buy a mint early 997 S, 2006 for less that 30k and stick a private reg on it so to the average dikhead on the street it looks new. then enjoy it for 2 or 3 years and sell it and lose 5 - 7k on it. no sweat, no heartache pal! this is what i have done, picked up a very tidy 2006 fully loaded 997S with OPC warranty for 29k and enjoy the fact i bought a 75k car without even noticing a dent in my wallet.
only people that buy new cars are the very wealthy or the very thick (or both)
chew on that son
The moral of the story is just buy a mint early 997 S, 2006 for less that 30k and stick a private reg on it so to the average dikhead on the street it looks new. then enjoy it for 2 or 3 years and sell it and lose 5 - 7k on it. no sweat, no heartache pal! this is what i have done, picked up a very tidy 2006 fully loaded 997S with OPC warranty for 29k and enjoy the fact i bought a 75k car without even noticing a dent in my wallet.
only people that buy new cars are the very wealthy or the very thick (or both)
chew on that son
Edited by knightriderx on Tuesday 9th November 01:23
Once you've driven them I'm sure that you'll have a preference for a turbo or n/a car, that will be a key factor.
All 911s will cost a few quid to insure, service and maintain.
New/nearly new prestige/performance cars are going to get battered on value nowadays, even 911s I'm afraid.
I used to try to buy cars according to a spreadsheet of figures - power, 0-60, mpg, costs, retained value etc. However cars are emotive purchases so it doesn't work!
Go and try a few, I'm sure that you'll find something that you like.
All 911s will cost a few quid to insure, service and maintain.
New/nearly new prestige/performance cars are going to get battered on value nowadays, even 911s I'm afraid.
I used to try to buy cars according to a spreadsheet of figures - power, 0-60, mpg, costs, retained value etc. However cars are emotive purchases so it doesn't work!
Go and try a few, I'm sure that you'll find something that you like.
Bit strong first reply Imho. It's all a choice and people can do what they want with their cash doesn't make new car buyers filthy rich or d
heads.
To OP just go for what your heart says so long as you can afford it, lifes to short and full of opinionated pillocks to do what other people yell you!
Whatever you decide enjoy and
appreciate you've joined a lucky minority
heads.To OP just go for what your heart says so long as you can afford it, lifes to short and full of opinionated pillocks to do what other people yell you!
Whatever you decide enjoy and
appreciate you've joined a lucky minority
Retraction reply said thick or both not dheads I apologise, either way such unjustified comments make my blood boil and was typing on my iPhone so difficult to see reference. I've chosen a new car and am not rich or thick but lucky to work in well paid industry where if work hard rewards can be had and I appreciate it evry day. End of rant
heads I apologise, either way such unjustified comments make my blood boil and was typing on my iPhone so difficult to see reference. I've chosen a new car and am not rich or thick but lucky to work in well paid industry where if work hard rewards can be had and I appreciate it evry day. End of rantWelcome. The cheapest car to buy and maintain would probably be a 2008 gen2 C2S, and also probably the best all-rounder too for the money, especially if you like the creature comforts like touch-screen nav, bluetooth e.t.c. At present you could pick up a nice spec PDK C2S for £60k, maybe £55k in a couple of months. Buying within the OPC network or a privately sold car with warranty would be your best and safest route into Pork ownership. Have it serviced at one of the more recommended OPC's and apart from a small amount of depreciation, it should be relatively easy on the pocket.
Depreciation is always hard to predict, but think of it this way..... buy right and it will lose less value than a brand new well specced BMW 5series
I would think in 12 months £12-£15k depreciation, but then probably only another £5-£8k in the second year. It all depends on how you buy and sell. Buy private and sell private is always the best for minimising this, but make sure it still has at least 91 days warranty remaining in order to extend for another year - which is wise.
Above all, buy what YOU like the best - it sounds like you are prepared to spend up to £75k - so you certainly have plenty of choice.
Depreciation is always hard to predict, but think of it this way..... buy right and it will lose less value than a brand new well specced BMW 5series
I would think in 12 months £12-£15k depreciation, but then probably only another £5-£8k in the second year. It all depends on how you buy and sell. Buy private and sell private is always the best for minimising this, but make sure it still has at least 91 days warranty remaining in order to extend for another year - which is wise.Above all, buy what YOU like the best - it sounds like you are prepared to spend up to £75k - so you certainly have plenty of choice.
Depn - biggest cost, with brand new as soon as out of the garage you will have lost at least option costs, also bear in mind dealer spread which with OPC can be up to 10k. going forward biggest issue will be the economy, was an absolute blood bath in 2008/start 2009, but prices since recovered somewhat. The winter is always the best time to buy.
Ins - your 2k estimate seems high, but will depend on location and your previous car experience. When i got mine a lot of companies would not quote due to myage/value of car/and first V high performance car. still only about 1k though
Servicing - only every two years, but your costs quoted don't include extras such as brake fluid change
Brakes- can last really well if looked after (mines done 45k and fronts are only 70% worn backs 50%. but discs are prone to corrosion so will last better if car is garaged and you always drive the car after cleaning to clean discs.
Tyres - 10-12k miles for rears, fronts can get double that (for 2 wheel drive) 1k alround is about right.
Re which car to buy, that really is up to you and what you prefer, i personally could not get excited with 4 wheel drive or the turbo sound track, drive some cars and decide for yourself. GTS does sound a great spec car, but even though limited edition you will still likly loose 15-20k in the first year depn if speced up to 85k. Have fun choosing
Ins - your 2k estimate seems high, but will depend on location and your previous car experience. When i got mine a lot of companies would not quote due to myage/value of car/and first V high performance car. still only about 1k though
Servicing - only every two years, but your costs quoted don't include extras such as brake fluid change
Brakes- can last really well if looked after (mines done 45k and fronts are only 70% worn backs 50%. but discs are prone to corrosion so will last better if car is garaged and you always drive the car after cleaning to clean discs.
Tyres - 10-12k miles for rears, fronts can get double that (for 2 wheel drive) 1k alround is about right.
Re which car to buy, that really is up to you and what you prefer, i personally could not get excited with 4 wheel drive or the turbo sound track, drive some cars and decide for yourself. GTS does sound a great spec car, but even though limited edition you will still likly loose 15-20k in the first year depn if speced up to 85k. Have fun choosing
Welcome
I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I would agree with those that have said you need to drive both the Turbo and the S to see which you prefer. They are very different and from your statements about wanting ultimate performance (with 4 seats) but not wanting 4WD and yet saying that the S is likely to provide all the performance you need, I would guess that a 2S would happily fit the bill.
Regarding depreciation; My view is that the late 997S could well be the worst. It is the most common on your list and at the end of the model's lifespan, neither of which bode well for future value. Turbos seem to depreciate more heavily in the earlier years (up to say up to 6/7 years old) and then because they offer a huge amount of performance for the money, they seem to do relatively better thereafter. The GTS will be interesting, but again I think that initial depreciation will still be relatively steep but it will always attract a premium that is likely to become more significant with age. How long are you planning to keep the car?
As far as costs go, it is of course going to depend on how many miles you will be doing and your driving style. I don't know precisely what Turbo costs are like, but I would imaging that it is going to be at least 25% higher than an S. A major service is every 2 years/20,000m but personally I would be changing the oil at least every year/10,000.
OPC Warranty. A read back through any Porsche forum will show the divisions over this. To maintain the warranty cover, pretty much everything has to be done by Porsche themselves. This is not just servicing but replacements such as batteries and absolutely no modifications (such as non-Porsche trackers, audio, exhausts etc.) If you can live with the restrictive terms i.e. keep it standard, then it is probably the most comprehensive on offer. As for its value, it is not just the £2-2.5K cost, but the fact that to get the warranty in the first place, the car has to have passed a Porsche inspection and any faults fixed before it can be covered. You can (and should) get any potential purchase inspected and a simple way would be to put it through the Porsche check.
Personally, I would (and did) go with the 2006 C2S option. From an OPC it should be immaculate, checked from top to bottom, and have 2 years warranty. There isn't a massive difference between a low mileage 06 and an equivalent 09 car, and certainly not enough to outweigh the £25-30,000 saving in my opinion.
I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I would agree with those that have said you need to drive both the Turbo and the S to see which you prefer. They are very different and from your statements about wanting ultimate performance (with 4 seats) but not wanting 4WD and yet saying that the S is likely to provide all the performance you need, I would guess that a 2S would happily fit the bill.
Regarding depreciation; My view is that the late 997S could well be the worst. It is the most common on your list and at the end of the model's lifespan, neither of which bode well for future value. Turbos seem to depreciate more heavily in the earlier years (up to say up to 6/7 years old) and then because they offer a huge amount of performance for the money, they seem to do relatively better thereafter. The GTS will be interesting, but again I think that initial depreciation will still be relatively steep but it will always attract a premium that is likely to become more significant with age. How long are you planning to keep the car?
As far as costs go, it is of course going to depend on how many miles you will be doing and your driving style. I don't know precisely what Turbo costs are like, but I would imaging that it is going to be at least 25% higher than an S. A major service is every 2 years/20,000m but personally I would be changing the oil at least every year/10,000.
OPC Warranty. A read back through any Porsche forum will show the divisions over this. To maintain the warranty cover, pretty much everything has to be done by Porsche themselves. This is not just servicing but replacements such as batteries and absolutely no modifications (such as non-Porsche trackers, audio, exhausts etc.) If you can live with the restrictive terms i.e. keep it standard, then it is probably the most comprehensive on offer. As for its value, it is not just the £2-2.5K cost, but the fact that to get the warranty in the first place, the car has to have passed a Porsche inspection and any faults fixed before it can be covered. You can (and should) get any potential purchase inspected and a simple way would be to put it through the Porsche check.
Personally, I would (and did) go with the 2006 C2S option. From an OPC it should be immaculate, checked from top to bottom, and have 2 years warranty. There isn't a massive difference between a low mileage 06 and an equivalent 09 car, and certainly not enough to outweigh the £25-30,000 saving in my opinion.
knightriderx said "only people that buy new cars are the very wealthy or the very thick (or both"
how very wrong!
what the op can do is buy a new c2s(from stock)for low £60s and save himself on depreciation and running costs(wont have to spend a penny for two years if miles kept below 20k.
the 997 will be even more heavily discounted when 998 comes out,there are a lot of new 997s sitting around as they are not selling.
when the gen 2 cayman s came out i bought a brand new outgoing gen 1 car for £10k less than rrp as there were a few sitting around and i had a choice of colour,spec. etc
so am i thick!,i know i am not wealthy!
how very wrong!
what the op can do is buy a new c2s(from stock)for low £60s and save himself on depreciation and running costs(wont have to spend a penny for two years if miles kept below 20k.
the 997 will be even more heavily discounted when 998 comes out,there are a lot of new 997s sitting around as they are not selling.
when the gen 2 cayman s came out i bought a brand new outgoing gen 1 car for £10k less than rrp as there were a few sitting around and i had a choice of colour,spec. etc
so am i thick!,i know i am not wealthy!
knightriderx said:
The moral of the story is just buy a mint early 997 S, 2006 for less that 30k and stick a private reg on it so to the average dikhead on the street it looks new. then enjoy it for 2 or 3 years and sell it and lose 5 - 7k on it. no sweat, no heartache pal! this is what i have done, picked up a very tidy 2006 fully loaded 997S with OPC warranty for 29k and enjoy the fact i bought a 75k car without even noticing a dent in my wallet.
A 2006 997S for less than £30k? Where from?!!!Lostprophet said:
knightriderx said:
The moral of the story is just buy a mint early 997 S, 2006 for less that 30k and stick a private reg on it so to the average dikhead on the street it looks new. then enjoy it for 2 or 3 years and sell it and lose 5 - 7k on it. no sweat, no heartache pal! this is what i have done, picked up a very tidy 2006 fully loaded 997S with OPC warranty for 29k and enjoy the fact i bought a 75k car without even noticing a dent in my wallet.
A 2006 997S for less than £30k? Where from?!!!OPC then offered me £29k trade in if I wanted to sell it to them, made me feel slightly smug i must admit!
Depreciation is your number one cost with one of these. When I got my GT3, I has a letter of intent in for a 997Turbo. At the time it was going to cost around £110k. Now it would be worth private or trade £55-£50k, so thats £55-60k over about 5yrs. I didn't get the Turbo, bought an 18month old GT3 & instead over the same period will have seen about £25k depreciation. If you are worried about money & to be honest judging by your questions it sounds like it's a concern go 2nd hand all the way. Insurance cost me around £700 & then allow £2k year servicing & maintainance. But then I do low mileage 3-4k pa.
Porkie said:
You say you need 4 seats.
You realise the rears are useless apart from small children
Not true. Cabs are more compromised, but the rear seats in the Coupes are surprisingly usable. The whole USP of the 911 as a 'junior supercar' is the flexible 2+2 configuration. Many 911 buyers simply couldn't justify buying a 2-seater sports car.You realise the rears are useless apart from small children
996/997 much improved over previous variants, and next gen 911 should be even better with longer wheelbase.
Benkhan said:
- What is depreciation as soon as you drive a brand new 911 out of the garage?
- turbo vs C2S depreciation, is there a difference?
- What is the view on additional, if any, depreciation due to the 991/998 release. How will 997 and 997 GTS be affected?
- What is the expectation of yearly mileage on a 911? 10k?
just IMHO but respectively- turbo vs C2S depreciation, is there a difference?
- What is the view on additional, if any, depreciation due to the 991/998 release. How will 997 and 997 GTS be affected?
- What is the expectation of yearly mileage on a 911? 10k?
- £12k, £4-5k as 2nd hand and not your spec, plus £7-8k dealer margin
- not % wise really, curve is same, age on curve is key
- a new model does only harm, hence need for great spec/value GTS
- 10k max, many are less because the P is 2nd/3rd car (will get flamed for that however)
"The moral of the story is just buy a mint early 997 S, 2006 for less that 30k "
find me a mint normal miles 2006 997 S <30k please.
a quick look and these seem to start at £37,995 on ave at dealers for one you would want to own just, and nice ones start at 40k for mint 997 S which i would go and look at.
find me a mint normal miles 2006 997 S <30k please.
a quick look and these seem to start at £37,995 on ave at dealers for one you would want to own just, and nice ones start at 40k for mint 997 S which i would go and look at.
Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 9th November 21:24
mayes911 said:
lol thats great for a CAT C non Salthough this is a little better and not has i just noticed cat c
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/2052855.htm
oops not an s either trying to be a little quick here.
i do believe 997s 2006 can be found for low £30s
as good low miles 2007 models seen for £40k
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/2052855.htm
oops not an s either trying to be a little quick here.
i do believe 997s 2006 can be found for low £30s
as good low miles 2007 models seen for £40k
Edited by mayes911 on Tuesday 9th November 21:29
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