Soooooo... frighteningly cheap Tuscans...
Discussion
Sorry to start another thread - the other one seems to have, erm, "had teething issues".
I've been following Tuscan prices for a long time - nearly bought on instead of the Cerb 2 and a half years ago, was planning it for 18 months before that, then I did buy one, then I had to sell one...
Aaaaanyway, the drop in price of earlier ones over this last year to 18 months does seem very marked given the relative age of the cars. I got my 2000 model car for £24k last April, and thought it was an absolute bargain at the time - most of them from dealers were around the £28k mark. [small](OK, so I needed a rebuild amongst MANY other things that cropped up, but it SEEMED a bargain)[/small]. Over the last year-and-a-bit, we've lost around £5k off the real going-price of the cars by my reckoning; 20% or so in depreciation P/A on a 5 year old car's pretty steep, especially given the higher percentage of them now for sale with rebuilt engines.
Personally, I think the shift has focussed from people wanting (earlier) cars with original engines, to those demanding ones with rebuilds (this is a good thing in my mind, as it puts pressure on TVR over reliability - people voting with their money). I guess the Tuscan 2 and Sagaris releases have affected residuals [i]a little[/i], but I doubt that's had too much of an impact other than for a slightly swollen second hand market.
Was just wondering what other people's take on this was, and, more importantly, where you think prices will be in another 12-18 months?
I've been following Tuscan prices for a long time - nearly bought on instead of the Cerb 2 and a half years ago, was planning it for 18 months before that, then I did buy one, then I had to sell one...
Aaaaanyway, the drop in price of earlier ones over this last year to 18 months does seem very marked given the relative age of the cars. I got my 2000 model car for £24k last April, and thought it was an absolute bargain at the time - most of them from dealers were around the £28k mark. [small](OK, so I needed a rebuild amongst MANY other things that cropped up, but it SEEMED a bargain)[/small]. Over the last year-and-a-bit, we've lost around £5k off the real going-price of the cars by my reckoning; 20% or so in depreciation P/A on a 5 year old car's pretty steep, especially given the higher percentage of them now for sale with rebuilt engines.
Personally, I think the shift has focussed from people wanting (earlier) cars with original engines, to those demanding ones with rebuilds (this is a good thing in my mind, as it puts pressure on TVR over reliability - people voting with their money). I guess the Tuscan 2 and Sagaris releases have affected residuals [i]a little[/i], but I doubt that's had too much of an impact other than for a slightly swollen second hand market.
Was just wondering what other people's take on this was, and, more importantly, where you think prices will be in another 12-18 months?
Sold my Jan 2003 car in March for £8 less than I paid for it new so depreciation of around 4k per year. Very very reasonable. And my dealer sold the car on at a profit in 1 week.
However, if you trade against a non TVR or sell privately you will obviously get less.
As has been said elsewhere the situation in the real world at present is that people are not spending on non essentials as thet were 2 years ago and so everything is more difficult to sell, including expensive sports cars.
Having said that 20k for a 5 year old car that cost 40k new seems to be about right.
However, if you trade against a non TVR or sell privately you will obviously get less.
As has been said elsewhere the situation in the real world at present is that people are not spending on non essentials as thet were 2 years ago and so everything is more difficult to sell, including expensive sports cars.
Having said that 20k for a 5 year old car that cost 40k new seems to be about right.
IMHO - I know when I have been looking, these days I only look at those earlier ones that have already had a rebuild...the more recent the better.
My exceptionally personal preference, is the looks of the older one - yeah, the T2 is the 'new' version with change in interior/face-lift/engineering improvements, but do you spend a chunk of cash on a deposit/monthly payments for a new one, or use your cash to get a well maintained/rebuilt/cherished Tuscan thats a few years old...as well as some in reserve for potential problems that would normally be covered by warranty on a new one?
Personally, I have been spending most of my time looking at 3 year old cars with a recent rebuild. That is what 'ticks the right boxes' for me.
You never know - once more potential buyers start doing the research like I have, you may find a boost in second hand prices, as the demand for such vehicles starts to balance against supply.
P~
>> Edited by PhantomPH on Friday 26th August 14:29
My exceptionally personal preference, is the looks of the older one - yeah, the T2 is the 'new' version with change in interior/face-lift/engineering improvements, but do you spend a chunk of cash on a deposit/monthly payments for a new one, or use your cash to get a well maintained/rebuilt/cherished Tuscan thats a few years old...as well as some in reserve for potential problems that would normally be covered by warranty on a new one?
Personally, I have been spending most of my time looking at 3 year old cars with a recent rebuild. That is what 'ticks the right boxes' for me.
You never know - once more potential buyers start doing the research like I have, you may find a boost in second hand prices, as the demand for such vehicles starts to balance against supply.
P~
>> Edited by PhantomPH on Friday 26th August 14:29
J_S_G said:
So, what of the asking price for an unrebuilt 2000/2001 car in 12-18 months time?
That is what I think will loose the most money.
One would hope that anyone considering a purchse of a used TVR (or a new one), would do their research. Thats what lead me here.
That research has also led me to create a 'list' of requirements in my purchase. One of those is most definitely the reassurance of well carried out engine work (as I said, the more recent the better) on an early car. Sorry Unrep and the other guys, but that is fact - I have read enough things now (and not just on PH) to know that with any TVR you need to expect a degree of 'maintenance'. One of the ways I consider essential to reducing the probability of expected maintenance costs, is to buy the right one in the first place - and that is most definitely NOT an early car that has "never let me down and runs great". Bet your ass, that 2 months after I bought it, would come it's first major bill
High maintenance costs are inevitable in TVR ownership (as even die-hard fans agree). Its how well you prepare for and accept that fact that matters. For that reason, early '100% reliable' cars are off my list.
P~
unrepentant said:
Sold my Jan 2003 car in March for £8 less than I paid for it new so depreciation of around 4k per year. Very very reasonable. And my dealer sold the car on at a profit in 1 week.
However, if you trade against a non TVR or sell privately you will obviously get less.
As has been said elsewhere the situation in the real world at present is that people are not spending on non essentials as thet were 2 years ago and so everything is more difficult to sell, including expensive sports cars.
Having said that 20k for a 5 year old car that cost 40k new seems to be about right.
I'd say that if you sold privately you'd get more, to be honest, as long as you're a "good seller". I'm more interested in where the prices of "early cars" are going, though, than the "piggy in the middle" 2003 cars . Basically the "what will the minimum you'll be able to buy a Tuscan for next Summer?" question. At this rate, it'll be sub £15k if you shop around, and that WOULD take it into "weekend toy" space for a lot more people (and leave a lot of money for alternative engines, etc), depending on how much it continues to depreciate after that.
J_S_G said:
Sold my Jan 2003 car in March for £8 less than I paid for it new so depreciation of around 4k per year. Very very reasonable.
I'd say that if you sold privately you'd get more, to be honest, as long as you're a "good seller".
With most cars I'd agree. However with TVR's the used market is very much within the dealer network and the situation is different from most marques. But I'm not here to argue.
When you consider that a new £40k car has £5957 of VAT in it, I'd still say £8k depreciation over 26 months is pretty good. I doubt a new 911 would do any better.
Hell, it's not the place, but anyway.
I'm sticking mine up on the classifieds this weekend.
2000 Red Rose. 18K Miles. 18s. new rear tyres, 3K or so left on front tyres.
one of best tuscs you'll come across.
Had a rebuild in march there which is under warranty till next march (2005 spec engine now with 405+ hp).
also got 2 years of my own warranty left which covers about everything else.
http://tvr.kilncadzow.co.uk/
I'll be looking for 22K.
yeh, you can find cheaper. most will be dogs.
stu
I'm sticking mine up on the classifieds this weekend.
2000 Red Rose. 18K Miles. 18s. new rear tyres, 3K or so left on front tyres.
one of best tuscs you'll come across.
Had a rebuild in march there which is under warranty till next march (2005 spec engine now with 405+ hp).
also got 2 years of my own warranty left which covers about everything else.
http://tvr.kilncadzow.co.uk/
I'll be looking for 22K.
yeh, you can find cheaper. most will be dogs.
stu
unrepentant said:
I doubt a new 911 would do any better.
..or the Volvo V90 with delivery miles only being advertised for £8k off list in the paper today, from a dealer...or the '54 reg mondeo 1.8 TCDi Zetec which cost £18,999.99 7 months ago, currently being offered by the dealer at £9,999.00.
>> Edited by PhantomPH on Friday 26th August 15:17
Can't really see the point of this!
Does anyone buy a car as an Investment!!
All cars depreciate look at the depreciation on cars with similar performance it's not just TVRs..
If you want one pay the money and enjoy it and if depreciation is a concern youre better of looking in the Honda/Toyota section or go buy a house!
Does anyone buy a car as an Investment!!
All cars depreciate look at the depreciation on cars with similar performance it's not just TVRs..
If you want one pay the money and enjoy it and if depreciation is a concern youre better of looking in the Honda/Toyota section or go buy a house!
G20RG B said:
Can't really see the point of this!
Does anyone buy a car as an Investment!!
All cars depreciate look at the depreciation on cars with similar performance it's not just TVRs..
If you want one pay the money and enjoy it and if depreciation is a concern youre better of looking in the Honda/Toyota section or go buy a house!
G20RG B said:
Can't really see the point of this!
Does anyone buy a car as an Investment!!
All cars depreciate look at the depreciation on cars with similar performance it's not just TVRs..
If you want one pay the money and enjoy it and if depreciation is a concern youre better of looking in the Honda/Toyota section or go buy a house!
Actually, yes, I do (for a lot of historic reasons)... made a profit on both the Cerb & Tuscan, along with nearly all my previous cars save for losing a bit on the Elise, and a little to an insurance write-off. I NEVER buy a car as a depreciating asset - always just look for undervalued examples.
But I wasn't wanting a Tuscan vs. the world comparison here, just "what's in store for future Tuscan depreciation" - the %age depreciation a five year old car has suffered over the last year or so is quite high (whether you consider other marques or not), where this goes is what really interests me, and what it holds in store for other people over the next year or two given the Tuscan 2, engine situation, potential launch of new models, etc.
If this doesn't interest you, fair enough. But the thought of possibility around a £10k Tuscan in 2 years that I can have running an LS1 for a few grand more is REALLY tempting; along with a general curiosity.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 26th August 17:36
Hindsight is great. I was one of the new breed of buyer who targeted an early model 4.0 Tuscan with a TVR Power rebuild post 2002.
I thought i had found a well sorted bargain for which i paid £24k in early 2004.
Had i waited another year i probably would have saved another 2-4k. But hey, i've got my dream car, its now properly sorted with the addition of Nitrons and ive got 5k in the bank against its next rebuild.
I'm not sure about future values, but i'm not selling anyhow, at least not until i can afford a Saggy arse.
I thought i had found a well sorted bargain for which i paid £24k in early 2004.
Had i waited another year i probably would have saved another 2-4k. But hey, i've got my dream car, its now properly sorted with the addition of Nitrons and ive got 5k in the bank against its next rebuild.
I'm not sure about future values, but i'm not selling anyhow, at least not until i can afford a Saggy arse.
J_S_G said:
If this doesn't interest you, fair enough. But the thought of possibility around a £10k Tuscan in 2 years that I can have running an LS1 for a few grand more is REALLY tempting; along with a general curiosity.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 26th August 17:36
Surely if Tuscan prices fall at this rate they will be cheaper than a Griff, which wouldn't make sense. I have seen similar aged Griff and Tuscans for the same money, but a Tuscan cheaper than a Griff ????
I've said it before, at this money they make a strong argument as it leaves cash in the bank for the rebuild.
Phil
slowly convincing myself
Phil Dicky said:
Surely if Tuscan prices fall at this rate they will be cheaper than a Griff, which wouldn't make sense. I have seen similar aged Griff and Tuscans for the same money, but a Tuscan cheaper than a Griff ????
I've said it before, at this money they make a strong argument as it leaves cash in the bank for the rebuild.
Phil
slowly convincing myself
Did the Tuscs not start off more expensive than the Griffs, though, meaning they've depreciated more already (and may well continue to do so)? Bear in mind you can regularly have a 5 series BMW for cheaper than a similarly aged 3 series on the second hand market... It's all supply and demand. I'd guess that you'll see the cheap ("original spec engine"
Tuscans dipping below £15k in 12 months, and a good couple of thousand further in 24 months, if current trends continue.It could be similar to the 911 position, where early 996s are selling for less than late 993s due to questions about build quality, engine reliability etc. Sound familiar?
You could start a thread about frighteningly cheap M5s, Maser 3200s, etc. There have been a few threads on the Porsche forum recently regarding 911TTs losing 1k a month. I don't think Tuscans are much worse than a lot of other similar cars.
You could start a thread about frighteningly cheap M5s, Maser 3200s, etc. There have been a few threads on the Porsche forum recently regarding 911TTs losing 1k a month. I don't think Tuscans are much worse than a lot of other similar cars.
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