First sit in a Tuscan 2 Convertible
Discussion
Mooched along to my local TVR dealer last night for the first time in a while. Sat in their first production Mk2 cabrio Tuscan.
All I can say is WOW!
Build quality was absolutely fantastic. Lots of "proper" finishes everywhere. Good panel fit. Solid interior. Only demerit was a slightly loose carpet around the pedals, but other than that it was so much beter than any other TVR I have ever sat in over the past 10 years.
The new T350 style instrument pack looks great too, as does the centre console.
There's a handy cubby behind the seats, with a nice lid.
The roll over protection looks good too, and the hood was nicely sealed.
All in all I was impressed. Very impressed. Maybe this Russian is onto something?
Andy 400se
Edited cos I can't spell!
>> Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 21st September 12:07
All I can say is WOW!
Build quality was absolutely fantastic. Lots of "proper" finishes everywhere. Good panel fit. Solid interior. Only demerit was a slightly loose carpet around the pedals, but other than that it was so much beter than any other TVR I have ever sat in over the past 10 years.
The new T350 style instrument pack looks great too, as does the centre console.
There's a handy cubby behind the seats, with a nice lid.
The roll over protection looks good too, and the hood was nicely sealed.
All in all I was impressed. Very impressed. Maybe this Russian is onto something?
Andy 400se
Edited cos I can't spell!
>> Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 21st September 12:07
I saw the Gorners one at BNG and whilst I think it looks great from the outside I thought the dash was a bit cheap looking. The indicator stalk etc.. were very Nissan parts bin IMO, not what you expect from a bespoke TVR. Also the retaining clip for the roof in the boot looked like an afterthought.
I know I am not alone in thinking this, but:
I am suspicious that the Tuscan 2 has gone through a cost subtraction exercise. The brass speedometer in the original Tuscan must have cost a serious chunk of money. Also the labour involved in producing and finishing off details such as the cheesegrater front grill - not to mention the arrival of cheap looking plastic indicator/wiper stalks!!
My conspiracy theory is that the design and componentry are simpler and cheaper than the original, all in the name of saving money and making profit. Good to hear that the build quality is good, but it would be nice to have seen retainment of some of those metal features that made the original Tuscan what it was.
I am suspicious that the Tuscan 2 has gone through a cost subtraction exercise. The brass speedometer in the original Tuscan must have cost a serious chunk of money. Also the labour involved in producing and finishing off details such as the cheesegrater front grill - not to mention the arrival of cheap looking plastic indicator/wiper stalks!!
My conspiracy theory is that the design and componentry are simpler and cheaper than the original, all in the name of saving money and making profit. Good to hear that the build quality is good, but it would be nice to have seen retainment of some of those metal features that made the original Tuscan what it was.
TUS 373 said:
I know I am not alone in thinking this, but:
I am suspicious that the Tuscan 2 has gone through a cost subtraction exercise. The brass speedometer in the original Tuscan must have cost a serious chunk of money. Also the labour involved in producing and finishing off details such as the cheesegrater front grill - not to mention the arrival of cheap looking plastic indicator/wiper stalks!!
My conspiracy theory is that the design and componentry are simpler and cheaper than the original, all in the name of saving money and making profit. Good to hear that the build quality is good, but it would be nice to have seen retainment of some of those metal features that made the original Tuscan what it was.
On the other hand............
Hydratrak now standard. Lamonta now standard. Electronic steering (miles better) now standard. The steering wheel in the T2 (not the con) is a much more expensive item than the standard parts bin Personal in the original. I seem to rcall that Lamonta and Hydratrak were worth about £1200. If they were cost cutting why include these for free? The overall fit and finish of the Tuscan 2 feels much more expensive (to me) than the original. (I had a 2003 model from new and replaced it with a 2005 T2).
(I'm speaking about the Targa more than the con).
TUS 373 said:
I am suspicious that the Tuscan 2 has gone through a cost subtraction exercise. The brass speedometer in the original Tuscan must have cost a serious chunk of money.
It does look like there's an element of that (particularly the switch gear) although to be fair, TVR came in for a lot of critism for that instrumentation regarding visibility in bright sunlight. The new pod is probably cheaper to produce but it's certainly more functional isn't it?
Pricing has been reviewed too. A rep spec
Tuscan targa or convertible (with no extras at all) is now £39,950.PetrolTed said:
[It does look like there's an element of that (particularly the switch gear) although to be fair, TVR came in for a lot of critism for that instrumentation regarding visibility in bright sunlight. The new pod is probably cheaper to produce but it's certainly more functional isn't it?
Pods sorted now. Works perfectly.
For what it's worth I think TVR panicked because of the early pod issues on the T2 and so decided to change the dash for the convertible to cut their losses. Hence the Ford Mondeoesque effort seen above. Whereas if they'd have sorted the pod issues straight away there would have been no need.
unrepentant said:
For what it's worth I think TVR panicked because of the early pod issues on the T2 and so decided to change the dash for the convertible to cut their losses. Hence the Ford Mondeoesque effort seen above. Whereas if they'd have sorted the pod issues straight away there would have been no need.
True. I do get a sense now though that the new team are keen to adopt more long-term solutions where some of the old faces tried to bodge their way out of the dilemmas facing them. The future will tell.
PetrolTed said:
For what it's worth I think TVR panicked because of the early pod issues on the T2 and so decided to change the dash for the convertible to cut their losses. Hence the Ford Mondeoesque effort seen above. Whereas if they'd have sorted the pod issues straight away there would have been no need.
True. I do get a sense now though that the new team are keen to adopt more long-term solutions where some of the old faces tried to bodge their way out of the dilemmas facing them. The future will tell.
I totally agree.
NS's view was "this is a problem let's sort it out", whereas I am reliably informed that a previous senior managers
solution was to tell the customers to get better sun glasses!unrepentant said:
The steering wheel in the T2 (not the con) is a much more expensive item than the standard parts bin Personal in the original. I seem to rcall that Lamonta and Hydratrak were worth about £1200. If they were cost cutting why include these for free?
Only speculation you understand (IMHO), but these are off the shelf components. Alot of the cost in producing the cars is labour. Therefore, they got rid of a load of staff and went more towards ready made stuff instead of things that take an age to make, especially when done so in house? (LED rear indicators must take a while longer that sticking in an orange bulb LOL!).
Same as for the Sagaris and filling the front wing slots in. Not so much the stories that stones get flicked up, but more that it would probably add several 10s of hours of labour cost onto the production to cut and finish them. Lets face it, more profit can be made by cutting costs - and with the more bespoke nature of the TVR, they may have found some ways to reduce this via the components they use?
TUS 373 said:
The steering wheel in the T2 (not the con) is a much more expensive item than the standard parts bin Personal in the original. I seem to rcall that Lamonta and Hydratrak were worth about £1200. If they were cost cutting why include these for free?
Only speculation you understand (IMHO), but these are off the shelf components. Alot of the cost in producing the cars is labour. Therefore, they got rid of a load of staff and went more towards ready made stuff instead of things that take an age to make, especially when done so in house? (LED rear indicators must take a while longer that sticking in an orange bulb LOL!).
Same as for the Sagaris and filling the front wing slots in. Not so much the stories that stones get flicked up, but more that it would probably add several 10s of hours of labour cost onto the production to cut and finish them. Lets face it, more profit can be made by cutting costs - and with the more bespoke nature of the TVR, they may have found some ways to reduce this via the components they use?
The steering wheel is most certainly not off the shelf. It is hand stitched in the factory. In fact the one it replaced (and on the con) is an off the shelf item. I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The T2 feels a much better quality car than the original and is better value in my opinion because it has much improved steering and suspension and now includes about £1200 worth of kit that was previously extra.
As far as the Sagaris cut outs are concerned I'm sure you're right. The cost of cutting out and finishing them off would have (I guess) been disproportionate to the cost of the car. But how many prototypes make it into production with no change?
TUS 373 said:
I know I am not alone in thinking this, but:
I am suspicious that the Tuscan 2 has gone through a cost subtraction exercise. The brass speedometer in the original Tuscan must have cost a serious chunk of money. Also the labour involved in producing and finishing off details such as the cheesegrater front grill - not to mention the arrival of cheap looking plastic indicator/wiper stalks!!
My conspiracy theory is that the design and componentry are simpler and cheaper than the original, all in the name of saving money and making profit. Good to hear that the build quality is good, but it would be nice to have seen retainment of some of those metal features that made the original Tuscan what it was.
You are only saying this because of the plastic stalks. Maybe the metal ones are now a cost option? If they can stick them on the Sagaris then they can on the Tuscan convertible.
cheers
Whitey
>> Edited by whitey on Wednesday 21st September 16:27
I think I am being a little misunderstood here. These are signs that TVR are addressing variation in quality and looking as much at the production process as at the finished artice. I remember reading in their blurb some years ago that they were delighted in telling the world in how labour intensive their cars were to produce! ( I think it was on some flyer they gave out at a Back Home). NS is making changes there to streamline production and I still believe this means improving quality as well as subtracting costs.
I don't want to argue, but I think the Cerbie had a hand stitched steering wheel available in all sorts of colors - so since deleting that from the line up, they can devote that effort to making some for the other models.
But, I think you still have to take my point about the differences in models:
- brass speedo with integrated digital speedo - now replaced by a 'more usual' (for TVR) unit shared with the Tamora, T350 and Sagaris (makes sense)
- LED indicators - must have taken hours to make soldering in each of those by hand (by Tracey?)
- Simpler details on the bodywork - those cheesegraters must have been a pain to produce
- seats - not sure by imagine that although the Tuscan's are different, there is cross between other models in the range
- chassis - not sure, but don't the Tam, 350 and Sag all share the same (Tuscan still based on Cerbie)
What does it all mean? Well it makes great sense. Simplification of the business makes it more efficient, better quality, more profitable. All good practice that should reward the customer. My comments about the Tuscan 2 are not intended to be derogatory (but yes the stalks suck) - more an observation that TVR is changing.
I don't want to argue, but I think the Cerbie had a hand stitched steering wheel available in all sorts of colors - so since deleting that from the line up, they can devote that effort to making some for the other models.
But, I think you still have to take my point about the differences in models:
- brass speedo with integrated digital speedo - now replaced by a 'more usual' (for TVR) unit shared with the Tamora, T350 and Sagaris (makes sense)
- LED indicators - must have taken hours to make soldering in each of those by hand (by Tracey?)
- Simpler details on the bodywork - those cheesegraters must have been a pain to produce
- seats - not sure by imagine that although the Tuscan's are different, there is cross between other models in the range
- chassis - not sure, but don't the Tam, 350 and Sag all share the same (Tuscan still based on Cerbie)
What does it all mean? Well it makes great sense. Simplification of the business makes it more efficient, better quality, more profitable. All good practice that should reward the customer. My comments about the Tuscan 2 are not intended to be derogatory (but yes the stalks suck) - more an observation that TVR is changing.
TUS 373 said:
What does it all mean? Well it makes great sense. Simplification of the business makes it more efficient, better quality, more profitable. All good practice that should reward the customer. My comments about the Tuscan 2 are not intended to be derogatory (but yes the stalks suck) - more an observation that TVR is changing.
Tus has it exactly right. We have to remember that NS took over a company he thought that could be returned to overall profitability. If the main source of income is producing cars he could either do three things: increase the price to the consumer, reduce production costs or cut overhead costs for non essential (ie non car production) practices that would otherwise affect the bottom line.
As far as I am aware he has done all three. With regard to the production, the best way of analysing the cost structure of producing the car would be to look at the cost of each component and each option and work out the total cost of including it into the car including man hours to install. This would also include the total cost of producing components in house. This is more expensive than you think as well as keeping a seat in the factory, and running costs of machinery there is also wages to take into account which means covering the cost of holidays and sick pay yada yada... and the list goes on.
What was probably found that using the same components (dash etc) across the ranges meant that a few hundred quid could be taken off the total production costs. Do this a few times with different sections of the car will mean that you could radically change the production costs.
Speaking from my car heart rather than my business head, I must say that the new monified dash on the TII looks very smart. However using plastic switchgear (Mondeo?) is a bit of a step back. Many journalists, even those who thought the outside of a Tuscan was plasticy loved the interior which was extemely classy without a sniff of plastic, thus being a lot more supercar than a 911. Just my opinion though...
I just read some of the articles on the convertible Tuscan MK 2. Perhaps you are looking a different car to the one I saw this week. I have to say I am very glad I did not wait for a convertible. Because I would have been well pissed off. In my opinion it's a step backward and looks cost cut but most importantly it is sadly lacking in that pizzazz or wow factor. The so call roll bars behind the seats looks so out of place and lacking in styling in keeping with the car me roll bars are crudely power coated silver and not well done and WHY are the seat belts the wrong way round that cant be right how does that hold you secure . The removable tops looks tatty and why make it have a bigger hump more in keeping wit a TT. The interior is poor what about the after thought storage space between the seats how secure is that with the roof down. It looks wrong still I suppose you could Velcro a pad lock to it. Now how about opening the boot you have your hands full you go to press the badge but it don't move. so where do they put the button just above the number plate in the recess However I have to say the gas struts now fitted to the boot lid is a nice touch and so is the filler cap and position that is better. The dash is lacking excitement the stalks are Mondeo and the finishing touch around the stalks is to add a gaiter made of cloth it’s awful and cheep. the steering wheel I had one of those on my chimaeras still I suppose you can always purchase the chrome countersunk screws to make it look better. How about the pressed metal bar behind the steering wheel to scroll through the menu with is that class or what? I could go on but just to say I saw the mock up at Goodwood over a year ago and thought this will be great Looking car. What I looked over this week was a real disappointment shame it’s turned out that way
I went to RG a days ago and saw their demo convertible... I wont bore you with what I think... lets just say... I completely agree with dti-dave.
Changing my order from a convertible to targa was the best decision I made!... Shame the clutch has gone on mine after only 4300 miles... Hey ho.. That's TVR for you
>> Edited by christiaan on Wednesday 21st September 21:41
Changing my order from a convertible to targa was the best decision I made!... Shame the clutch has gone on mine after only 4300 miles... Hey ho.. That's TVR for you
>> Edited by christiaan on Wednesday 21st September 21:41
Well I've seen it and I'm d*mn glad I waited. It is fantastic. And plastic stalks (I don't like these either)is actually a pretty minor worry in my book.
Complete gubbins!(IMHO) - it's still a Tuscan! - although I don't currently drive one, so maybe I'm not so immune.
Best of all is when looking round to check the blind spot - you get a view over the rear almost as good as the view over the bonnet....
Top Gear did a test where they got their mums to review some micras or similar. This is exactly what Mrs Hammond said.
dti-dave said:
most importantly it is sadly lacking in that pizzazz or wow factor.
Complete gubbins!(IMHO) - it's still a Tuscan! - although I don't currently drive one, so maybe I'm not so immune. Best of all is when looking round to check the blind spot - you get a view over the rear almost as good as the view over the bonnet....
dti-dave said:
Now how about opening the boot you have your hands full you go to press the badge but it don't move.
Top Gear did a test where they got their mums to review some micras or similar. This is exactly what Mrs Hammond said.
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