RE: Tolls, Smart Cards or What?
Monday 20th May 2002
Tolls, Smart Cards or What?
What is the solution to congestion in the UK?
Discussion
As long as they remove the speed limits, I'd be prepared to pay a toll for motorways.
People with slow cars, or who can't afford the tolls
can stay on the current motorways, and people for whom time is money, or if you just fancy a bit of high speed driving without having to worry about Plod, can use the new roads.
James
People with slow cars, or who can't afford the tolls
can stay on the current motorways, and people for whom time is money, or if you just fancy a bit of high speed driving without having to worry about Plod, can use the new roads. James
I think a new motorway network with tolls is a good idea... Tolls are unavoidable - so better to build new motorways and apply the tolls there, leaving the existing infrastructure intact.
I know there are caveats.. like the existing infrastructure could be left to rot whilst money is spent on the new revenue generating highway, but there is no perfect solution..
Of course there is another way of looking at the problem - you see it appears to me that traffic congestion is merely symptomatic of a far greater problem - vast over-population in some parts of the UK. I therefore propose an extensive programme of moron-culling. At a stroke, we could reduce congestion, pressure on the NHS & social security systems, and also experience myriad side-benefits.
Plus, I'd apply for the job in a shot...
Mr CarZee. Director - UK Moron-Culling Programme Ltd
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 20th May 12:20
I know there are caveats.. like the existing infrastructure could be left to rot whilst money is spent on the new revenue generating highway, but there is no perfect solution..
Of course there is another way of looking at the problem - you see it appears to me that traffic congestion is merely symptomatic of a far greater problem - vast over-population in some parts of the UK. I therefore propose an extensive programme of moron-culling. At a stroke, we could reduce congestion, pressure on the NHS & social security systems, and also experience myriad side-benefits.
Plus, I'd apply for the job in a shot...
Mr CarZee. Director - UK Moron-Culling Programme Ltd
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 20th May 12:20
Carzee
I disagree, we (motorists)are currently providing the government with 35bn gbp a year yet they spend less than 5bm on maintaining highways. Now I know its unrealistic to expect them to spend every penny in improving transport and infrastructure, when they have all the refugees, single mothers and pikeys to support, but I don't see why I have to put my hand in my bloody pocket for something I've already bloody paid for!!!!!
Sorry having a bad day
Cheers Dan
I disagree, we (motorists)are currently providing the government with 35bn gbp a year yet they spend less than 5bm on maintaining highways. Now I know its unrealistic to expect them to spend every penny in improving transport and infrastructure, when they have all the refugees, single mothers and pikeys to support, but I don't see why I have to put my hand in my bloody pocket for something I've already bloody paid for!!!!!
Sorry having a bad day
Cheers Dan
Slight problem though, Mr Director - in time you will get what you pay for. The toll roads will be impeccable roads akin to driving on a snooker table in terms of smoothness, whereas our dear old motorways will have become like the surface of the Moon.
Cynic in moi sees the Government trying to get themselves out of spending money on roads YET AGAIN, and invite the private sector to foot the bill. Well, let's look at roads first, shall we ? Dartford Bridge - paid for late last year (I recall), and we are still paying a nugget everytime we want to traverse old Father Thames. THEY say that the additional income will be ploughed back into roads. What two-faced, ill-conceived patronising bullshit. It will be used to prop up the benefits state and any other thing that is crying out for money.
And lets take a final quick look at two other recent "Let's farm it out to the private sector" hand-me-downs, shall we ?
1) The railways
2) Air Traffic Control
Hmm, well they've turned up trumps, haven't they ? We still have a rail infrastructure that is creaking under the lack of investment, and our spanking new state of the art ATC system is a laughing stock.
Cynic in moi sees the Government trying to get themselves out of spending money on roads YET AGAIN, and invite the private sector to foot the bill. Well, let's look at roads first, shall we ? Dartford Bridge - paid for late last year (I recall), and we are still paying a nugget everytime we want to traverse old Father Thames. THEY say that the additional income will be ploughed back into roads. What two-faced, ill-conceived patronising bullshit. It will be used to prop up the benefits state and any other thing that is crying out for money.
And lets take a final quick look at two other recent "Let's farm it out to the private sector" hand-me-downs, shall we ?
1) The railways
2) Air Traffic Control
Hmm, well they've turned up trumps, haven't they ? We still have a rail infrastructure that is creaking under the lack of investment, and our spanking new state of the art ATC system is a laughing stock.
The problem with Toll roads is that people will drive for miles to avoid them. Particularly if they are less well off. People who are less well off often drive older, more polluting cars. Therefore these Older, more polluting cars will be doing more miles. Older more polluting cars are comparatively worse for the environment than shiny new cars...and the more miles they drive the worse their pollution is.
Toll roads are therefore bad for the environment and I disagree with them out of principle.
Hah
Toll roads are therefore bad for the environment and I disagree with them out of principle.
HahFirst of all, if we have the culling programme, there'll be no need for new motorways...
Secondly, ISTM that there's a world of difference between building new motorways in the private sector and tolling those, and selling the existing infrastructure to a private company and then tolling what we already have.
Look at it this way - if we get loads of new road building - which has been a long time coming, we get to go and hit greens with a big shovel.. and that idea appeals to me..
I don't know if anyone noticed over the weekend, but BLiar was making very Thatcher-like noises about not allowing "little englanders" from preventing progress due to their luddite protests - referring mainly to sci/tech sector, animal rights twats etc, but stands equally for road-protestors.. is Tony getting ready for battle?
Gimme that axe and bring on the smellies!
Secondly, ISTM that there's a world of difference between building new motorways in the private sector and tolling those, and selling the existing infrastructure to a private company and then tolling what we already have.
Look at it this way - if we get loads of new road building - which has been a long time coming, we get to go and hit greens with a big shovel.. and that idea appeals to me..
I don't know if anyone noticed over the weekend, but BLiar was making very Thatcher-like noises about not allowing "little englanders" from preventing progress due to their luddite protests - referring mainly to sci/tech sector, animal rights twats etc, but stands equally for road-protestors.. is Tony getting ready for battle?
Gimme that axe and bring on the smellies!
quote:Cart before the horse, Don?
The problem with Toll roads is that people will drive for miles to avoid them. Particularly if they are less well off. People who are less well off often drive older, more polluting cars.
Less well off people are less well off precisely *because* they don't have the nouse to work out the more cost effective option between a 50 mile toll route and a 75 mile non-toll route..
Bring on the culling!
quote:
I don't know if anyone noticed over the weekend, but BLiar was making very Thatcher-like noises about not allowing "little englanders" from preventing progress due to their luddite protests - referring mainly to sci/tech sector, animal rights twats etc, but stands equally for road-protestors.. is Tony getting ready for battle?
I think the "little englanders" "preventing progress" that you refer to will be the Little Englanders protesting about their Government dragging them kicking and screaming into Europe whether they like it or not.
Yes, Tony is getting ready for battle. With his own electorate. Wish him luck. I think he will need it.
Yeah - you're probably right Greg, but it's not that to which I am referring...
Have a look at today's Times..
Have a look at today's Times..
quote:In the same edition, there's an article about Blair being told he'll never win a Euro referendum.. which is encouraging..
TONY BLAIR has promised to break down the “anti- science fashion” in Britain, declaring that the Government will never give way to misguided protesters who stand in the way of medical and economic advance.
CarZee, note the little addition, 'and economic' at the end of that quote. He's softening us up like usual, first it will be the 'anti science' people, a group which, if it exists at all is insignificant and one with which most people disagree.
Then, when it comes to europe, anyone who complains will be likened to the anti-science luddites as they clearly don't see all the economic benefits we will reap as we stride triumphantly into europe and get pi55ed on by the French and Germans.
Then, when it comes to europe, anyone who complains will be likened to the anti-science luddites as they clearly don't see all the economic benefits we will reap as we stride triumphantly into europe and get pi55ed on by the French and Germans.
Sorry to get back on topic, but missed the earlier posts. The new motorway scheme is a top idea. You've increased the capacity of the countries mothorways, meaning that the people who don't want to pay or are not in a rush have less congested roads, and the people that just wan to get to Manchester, Birmingham etc get there quicker. The speed limit should be put up to 90 or 100 and use of the road should only be available to those who have passed an additional driving test based on tuition at these speeds on the new roads. I guess that means that for the first few weeks nothing but "learner" drivers on them, but i reckon there would be a big takeup and we have increased driving standards into the bargain
Having the roads following a parallel route to the existing network will minimise environment impact as well.
Having the roads following a parallel route to the existing network will minimise environment impact as well.
Mark - yes, but equally, anti-road and anti-car protestors are anti-economy - further growth in the UK will depend on making the transport infrastructure adequate & we're best placed to do that by building more roads..
hence that Swampy twat will be finally dismembered next time he turns up in front of a bulldozer on a road contruction site..
hence that Swampy twat will be finally dismembered next time he turns up in front of a bulldozer on a road contruction site..
Nice to see everyone is feeling as rabid as usual today.
Now that cull business - is it going to be a free-for-all or do we have take a ticket and wait our turn? There are more than a few neanderthals on my estate that need sorting out...
One of the little scrotes nearly took the door off my car last week when he bounced over a speed-bump at 60mph...
Now that cull business - is it going to be a free-for-all or do we have take a ticket and wait our turn? There are more than a few neanderthals on my estate that need sorting out...
One of the little scrotes nearly took the door off my car last week when he bounced over a speed-bump at 60mph...
I'll be amazed if new motorways are constructed here in the UK. Sure, in France it may not have been a bad idea (route nationale v. payages), as they have masses more free space than England.
As Carzee has correctly noted, England is stupidly overcrowded. For goodness sake, there are nearly 60 Million people compacted into a small island, and half of that is relatively sparsely populated (Scotland). Take a trip anywhere else in Europe and no-where are they penned in like here. *and* we're letting more asylum seekers in. Brilliant. Have you ever been to scandinavia? Norway is over 2 times the size of GB, and has under 3 million people there. Go figure.
So we could
1) Cull the morons. Good plan, death race 2000 style maybe?
2) Adopt socially selective genetic engineering, Sweden style. (it's no accident they're all 9 feet tall and blonde).
3) Put in place socially responsible taxes for families with no or 1 child, China style. Hoi Chi Min Blair?
4) Move to another country to get away from this crap?
Most likely right now is number 4. More roads will mean more cars, more people, more morons. Perhaps we should do a reverse invasion through the tunnel and annexe Northern France? Tally ho chaps, oopps sorry, allez y, monsieurs!
>> Edited by ap_smith on Monday 20th May 15:51
As Carzee has correctly noted, England is stupidly overcrowded. For goodness sake, there are nearly 60 Million people compacted into a small island, and half of that is relatively sparsely populated (Scotland). Take a trip anywhere else in Europe and no-where are they penned in like here. *and* we're letting more asylum seekers in. Brilliant. Have you ever been to scandinavia? Norway is over 2 times the size of GB, and has under 3 million people there. Go figure.
So we could
1) Cull the morons. Good plan, death race 2000 style maybe?
2) Adopt socially selective genetic engineering, Sweden style. (it's no accident they're all 9 feet tall and blonde).
3) Put in place socially responsible taxes for families with no or 1 child, China style. Hoi Chi Min Blair?
4) Move to another country to get away from this crap?
Most likely right now is number 4. More roads will mean more cars, more people, more morons. Perhaps we should do a reverse invasion through the tunnel and annexe Northern France? Tally ho chaps, oopps sorry, allez y, monsieurs!
>> Edited by ap_smith on Monday 20th May 15:51
On the face of it this whole plan actually sounds reasonable. Build a brand new network which you pay to use, reduce road tax in return. You can't lose, either you use the new roads which are faster and clearer or you save your money and stay on the old road which has less traffic than before. Either way you pay less road tax anyway.
Now call me a cynic but why do I suspect that:
a) the new roads will be pie in the sky (probably for the reasons already expounded - you can't get a f**king by-pass built these days without having to bulldoze tree huggers out of the way) and we'll just end up paying to use some of the old roads. Hence no reduction in congestion, just another tax.
b) maintenance spending on the non-toll roads will drop to zero so you'll need those off-roaders we all hate to climb over the potholes within six months.
The BEEB are running a Talking Point forum on the subject
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_1923000/1923514.stm
There are some reasonable views - except one of those "everyone knows motorists are massively subsidised because all the costs come to over £60 billion and those naughty motorists only pay £30 billion in tax" tw@ts who really needs his head tearing off and shoving up his arse (for starters).
Now call me a cynic but why do I suspect that:
a) the new roads will be pie in the sky (probably for the reasons already expounded - you can't get a f**king by-pass built these days without having to bulldoze tree huggers out of the way) and we'll just end up paying to use some of the old roads. Hence no reduction in congestion, just another tax.
b) maintenance spending on the non-toll roads will drop to zero so you'll need those off-roaders we all hate to climb over the potholes within six months.
The BEEB are running a Talking Point forum on the subject
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_1923000/1923514.stm
There are some reasonable views - except one of those "everyone knows motorists are massively subsidised because all the costs come to over £60 billion and those naughty motorists only pay £30 billion in tax" tw@ts who really needs his head tearing off and shoving up his arse (for starters).
Wow - even by the usual Luddite standards of the right wing of the Pistonheads crowd, this one's really got you twats going: Moron-culling squads? Come on, guys; you sound like a bunch of crack-addled teenagers. Is this the other side of "lives of quiet desperation"? Face it - you're not going to get improved road conditions until you force the government to spend real money on public transport that actually meets your needs. It really is a stark choice - the military, or your infrastructure - and you guys are getting hosed, just like we are over here in the states. By the time you get those new roads (or extra lanes) built, the traffic will already have filled 'em up - we've tried it for 20 years, and it doesn't work. Think about how much you waste on your military posing, and then Do The Math... You clowns - do you really think most people - who don't give a rat's ass about cars - wouldn't jump at the chance to get out of the traffic jams that you howl about, if they had a real choice?
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