Speeding Plod Kills Woman in SW London
Discussion
www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=622032&in_review_text_id=591931
More chases? More stupid other road users?
I know from other threads that you lot are tightly managed and scrutinised in your driving activities, how & why do things like this keep happening?
(I'm not having a cheap shot - I just want an insight into what causes this undeniable upward trend)
quote:Any comment from police here? How come the accident rate has rocketed?
A police car today killed a woman pedestrian when it ploughed into her while answering an emergency call.
The 29-year-old woman was struck by the Vauxhall Astra outside a police station early this morning in south-east London. Paramedics were unable to save her and she was declared dead 45 minutes later at the scene in Shooters Hill Road, at the junction with Academy Road.
The tragedy raises new fears over the safety of police drivers while responding to emergencies. Deaths in high-speed pursuits have tripled in four years. Scotland Yard has launched a full investigation into the latest incident and has informed the Police Complaints Authority.
More chases? More stupid other road users?
I know from other threads that you lot are tightly managed and scrutinised in your driving activities, how & why do things like this keep happening?
(I'm not having a cheap shot - I just want an insight into what causes this undeniable upward trend)
Just a few points which may be relevant...
The news item says the woman "was struck as she was walking along the road". Why the road? Why not the pavement?
The accident was on "Shooters Hill Road, at the junction with Academy Road", a location confirmed by the descrption of "outside a police station". Looking at an aerial photo of the junction, it looks like Shooters Hill Road has a pavement, although it looks like Academy Road may not (it runs alongside Woolwich Common.)
The police car "had its blue lights on but not the warning siren". Someone walking away from the junction (i.e. away from the police station) may not have been aware of the police car behind them.
There doesn't look to be any street lighting on this section of Academy Road, so the police may have had a hard time spotting someone walking in the road ahead of them.
No conclusions. Just observations.
The news item says the woman "was struck as she was walking along the road". Why the road? Why not the pavement?
The accident was on "Shooters Hill Road, at the junction with Academy Road", a location confirmed by the descrption of "outside a police station". Looking at an aerial photo of the junction, it looks like Shooters Hill Road has a pavement, although it looks like Academy Road may not (it runs alongside Woolwich Common.)
The police car "had its blue lights on but not the warning siren". Someone walking away from the junction (i.e. away from the police station) may not have been aware of the police car behind them.
There doesn't look to be any street lighting on this section of Academy Road, so the police may have had a hard time spotting someone walking in the road ahead of them.
No conclusions. Just observations.
quote:surely in the absence of street lighting, the blues would have been doubly noticable then??
The police car "had its blue lights on but not the warning siren". Someone walking away from the junction (i.e. away from the police station) may not have been aware of the police car behind them.
There doesn't look to be any street lighting on this section of Academy Road, so the police may have had a hard time spotting someone walking in the road ahead of them.
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 24th June 14:13
quote:
quote:Certainly one of my thoughts that, people with less regard and respect for traffic than there once was - covered under "stupid other road users".
More jaywalkers?
I remember reading an article once that stated more than 70% of all pedestrian/car accidents happened within 100 yrds of a pedestrian crossing. One of my friends (who was driving my car at the time) had a similar accident 3 years back, thankfully the guy was ok and wasn't hurt badly. He ran across 4 lanes of the South Circular going through Wandsworth as we came round the corner but was shielded by a bus. Next thing we know he is on the bonnet. There was a pedestrian crossing about 20 yrds from where he crossed.
My mate didn't drive for about 4 months after that (said it was his fault and he should have seen him) and still refuses to drive in London. And the sh*t he got from the police when they turned up...
Why do people insist on taking unnecessary risks???
>> Edited by Ministry on Monday 24th June 14:55
How come this wasn't captured on a "safety" camera??
Thats why it happens more.... plebs think everything in the garden is cushty now that Tony has said there are plenty of these revenue, oops sorry, "saftey" cameras in town to keep the nasty motorist in terror of driving, so they think they own the road.... that and pedestrianisation of so many areas...
They forget that a car weighs around a ton or so and humans are little more than a 90kg bag of water....
Condolences to the ladies family and commiserations to the driver. A totally shite situation no matter how you look at it.
Thats why it happens more.... plebs think everything in the garden is cushty now that Tony has said there are plenty of these revenue, oops sorry, "saftey" cameras in town to keep the nasty motorist in terror of driving, so they think they own the road.... that and pedestrianisation of so many areas...
They forget that a car weighs around a ton or so and humans are little more than a 90kg bag of water....
Condolences to the ladies family and commiserations to the driver. A totally shite situation no matter how you look at it.
I have been surprised to read so far no utter condemnation of the actions of the Police driver.
That is until the inevitable post from outlaw, so hopefully I will get in before him/her ( I suspect male but assume nothing)
Without knowing the full circumstances I can only give an outline of the policies and guidelines that are issued to Police Drivers.
Panda cars or general patrol vehicles are normally low performance and fitted with blue lights and sirens as a health and safety requirement. It is only in the last few years that sirens have been fitted as a result of this requirement.
The standard driving course to be allowed to operate one of these vehicles is roughly equivalent to that of the IAM test standard.
The course is between 2 and 3 weeks long and is taken in the type of vehicle that the officers will be using.
They are all capable of exceeding the restricted road limits by a long way. ( The current Astra car has equivqlent performance as the old 2.8 L Granada (box shaped) that used to be used by the traffic Depts in many forces).
Just because an officer is driving a panda car, doesn't mean he is not highly skilled and even if someone is driving a high performance traffic response car does not mean they are infalible. (I know some crap traffic drivers)
Many officers through the crazy tenure of post policy within the Police are taken off skilled jobs and put back into the main shift Policing role.
The policies where driving fast to response type situations are not purely the decision of the driver responding.
Control or CAD rooms have responsibility to grade the calls as they arrive, therefore taking pressure away from the driver responding.
When an immediate response is required, it is policy that the most experienced officer in the car does the job and should the vehicle be deployed in a pursuit situation then someone more qualified will do the driving. (if policies like this are ignored and it goes wrong then there are big questions to answer to the Police Complaints Authority.
Panda cars are not banned from engaging pursuits, but as soon as a traffic or other high perfomance vehicle like Trojan or Armed response units are in immediate following positions, the Panda is instructed to break away and maintain a static point somewhere tactical to try and cut off or spot the escaping suspect should the pursuit vehicle become lost. This happens as Panda drivers are apt to get in the way of the more powerful cars and make the job more difficult.
There are time that when two officers working together for extended periods, obviously share the driving. If the lesser qualified driver was at the wheel after the other had been driving for several hours, then no criticism would be laid at his/her door for that should they be required to respond quickly.
I cannot give you any statistics about the frequency of Police vehicle accidents but consider that in my force it is common for between 1200 and 1600 calls are received every 24 hours.
I can tell you that about between 500 to 700 of those will meet with an immediate response.
If you times that by the 43 forces in the country then you can see the scale of the problem.
Some will be short journeys in lower populated areas, some will be long in congested busy areas.
When you see and put that into perspective then there are relatively few fatalities due to police vehicle response options.
The last piece of advice given to everyone on any Police driving course is 'IT IS BETTER TO ARRIVE LATE THAN NOT AT ALL'
All officers are under pressure to return performance figures. If you are going to persons reporting a Burglay or similar in progress, then you don't put on the sirens to allert them of your impending arrival.
(most cops want to catch these people and get them put away) There lies the dilemna.
At the end of the day it is better to lose the detention of a burglar than to hurt or kill someone. We are all accutely aware of this.
To have an acident in a Police vehicle also affects the ability of the individual officer to gain a low quote on their personal car insurance as you have to notify as a relevant accident, all that you have, even at work. This affects the risk of the insurance company even though the driving is not what you would do in your own car. (It is not wise to fail to disclose these incidents to your own insurance Co. as they are in the habit of sharing information these days.)
To crash a Police Vehicle causes a huge amount of grief even if the damage is minor. The discipline Dept have a court type system that award points to your Police permit.The offending driver is routinely suspended from driving if considered at fault in any way. This is an attempt to show that the highest standards are maintained where the safety of the public and officers are concerned.
(You also get this p*ss taken relentlessly for fender benders).
Police officers are only human. Some are more competent than others. Many take risks so that the public are kept safe from the scum that would ruin your lives.
Sometimes this has the effect of going drastically wrong.
My condolences go to both the grieving family and to the officers in the patrol car.
This is something that they will have to now live with for the rest of their lives (family and officers) and particularly the officers if there is found to be no fault on their part.
That is until the inevitable post from outlaw, so hopefully I will get in before him/her ( I suspect male but assume nothing)
Without knowing the full circumstances I can only give an outline of the policies and guidelines that are issued to Police Drivers.
Panda cars or general patrol vehicles are normally low performance and fitted with blue lights and sirens as a health and safety requirement. It is only in the last few years that sirens have been fitted as a result of this requirement.
The standard driving course to be allowed to operate one of these vehicles is roughly equivalent to that of the IAM test standard.
The course is between 2 and 3 weeks long and is taken in the type of vehicle that the officers will be using.
They are all capable of exceeding the restricted road limits by a long way. ( The current Astra car has equivqlent performance as the old 2.8 L Granada (box shaped) that used to be used by the traffic Depts in many forces).
Just because an officer is driving a panda car, doesn't mean he is not highly skilled and even if someone is driving a high performance traffic response car does not mean they are infalible. (I know some crap traffic drivers)
Many officers through the crazy tenure of post policy within the Police are taken off skilled jobs and put back into the main shift Policing role.
The policies where driving fast to response type situations are not purely the decision of the driver responding.
Control or CAD rooms have responsibility to grade the calls as they arrive, therefore taking pressure away from the driver responding.
When an immediate response is required, it is policy that the most experienced officer in the car does the job and should the vehicle be deployed in a pursuit situation then someone more qualified will do the driving. (if policies like this are ignored and it goes wrong then there are big questions to answer to the Police Complaints Authority.
Panda cars are not banned from engaging pursuits, but as soon as a traffic or other high perfomance vehicle like Trojan or Armed response units are in immediate following positions, the Panda is instructed to break away and maintain a static point somewhere tactical to try and cut off or spot the escaping suspect should the pursuit vehicle become lost. This happens as Panda drivers are apt to get in the way of the more powerful cars and make the job more difficult.
There are time that when two officers working together for extended periods, obviously share the driving. If the lesser qualified driver was at the wheel after the other had been driving for several hours, then no criticism would be laid at his/her door for that should they be required to respond quickly.
I cannot give you any statistics about the frequency of Police vehicle accidents but consider that in my force it is common for between 1200 and 1600 calls are received every 24 hours.
I can tell you that about between 500 to 700 of those will meet with an immediate response.
If you times that by the 43 forces in the country then you can see the scale of the problem.
Some will be short journeys in lower populated areas, some will be long in congested busy areas.
When you see and put that into perspective then there are relatively few fatalities due to police vehicle response options.
The last piece of advice given to everyone on any Police driving course is 'IT IS BETTER TO ARRIVE LATE THAN NOT AT ALL'
All officers are under pressure to return performance figures. If you are going to persons reporting a Burglay or similar in progress, then you don't put on the sirens to allert them of your impending arrival.
(most cops want to catch these people and get them put away) There lies the dilemna.
At the end of the day it is better to lose the detention of a burglar than to hurt or kill someone. We are all accutely aware of this.
To have an acident in a Police vehicle also affects the ability of the individual officer to gain a low quote on their personal car insurance as you have to notify as a relevant accident, all that you have, even at work. This affects the risk of the insurance company even though the driving is not what you would do in your own car. (It is not wise to fail to disclose these incidents to your own insurance Co. as they are in the habit of sharing information these days.)
To crash a Police Vehicle causes a huge amount of grief even if the damage is minor. The discipline Dept have a court type system that award points to your Police permit.The offending driver is routinely suspended from driving if considered at fault in any way. This is an attempt to show that the highest standards are maintained where the safety of the public and officers are concerned.
(You also get this p*ss taken relentlessly for fender benders).
Police officers are only human. Some are more competent than others. Many take risks so that the public are kept safe from the scum that would ruin your lives.
Sometimes this has the effect of going drastically wrong.
My condolences go to both the grieving family and to the officers in the patrol car.
This is something that they will have to now live with for the rest of their lives (family and officers) and particularly the officers if there is found to be no fault on their part.
A bit O/T but...
While I understand the reasons for not using sirens in some situations, does the same go for the blue lights?
Just so happens I was giving my Father a lift home (and hence driving like a saint
). I was turning from a 'main' road, into very tight 'high risk' sidestreet (narrow, blind turn, lots of parked cars, adjacent a pub)
I had checked to rear and noticed a Panda type Astra approaching QUICK, but with no lights or sirens. Instead of slowing while I completed the turn he used the oncoming traffics right turn lane.
Which was unfortunate as a Toyota 4x4 (and another car behind) was just moving into it while indicating correctly - the 4x4 realised what was occuring and served slightly. I reckon the copper missed a head-on by about half a metre...
At least if the lights were going it would give other road users warning that a vehicle might be doing twice the 30 limit (and that's a conservative estimate).
Just curious about policies in different forces.
Cheers, Phil
While I understand the reasons for not using sirens in some situations, does the same go for the blue lights?
Just so happens I was giving my Father a lift home (and hence driving like a saint
). I was turning from a 'main' road, into very tight 'high risk' sidestreet (narrow, blind turn, lots of parked cars, adjacent a pub) I had checked to rear and noticed a Panda type Astra approaching QUICK, but with no lights or sirens. Instead of slowing while I completed the turn he used the oncoming traffics right turn lane.
Which was unfortunate as a Toyota 4x4 (and another car behind) was just moving into it while indicating correctly - the 4x4 realised what was occuring and served slightly. I reckon the copper missed a head-on by about half a metre...
At least if the lights were going it would give other road users warning that a vehicle might be doing twice the 30 limit (and that's a conservative estimate).
Just curious about policies in different forces.
Cheers, Phil
quote:
Granted - so would you care to speculate as to why there has been a significant increase in deaths occuring during blues runs?
I can't as I do not know by how much they have increased.
Common sense though would suggest that there has been a huge increase in the number of people using the roads in recent years and that the demands that are put on an ever decreasing number of Police are growing at a phenominal rate.
Also there is in my force a huge number of young recruits as the older more experienced ones are leaving in droves as they have had enough of all the political sh*te that is thrown at them and they can't afford to live here anymore.
The youngsters are trained to do the job but when they are let loose, they are not restrained by someone who has the inherant desire to get home at the end of the day to his pipe and slippers.
Put two 21 year olds in a car with lights and sirens after a 3 week course and they can do no wrong ( or so they think)
I see it daily. These recruits that are let loose do things like drive on blues and twos to an alarm at a factory premise at 17.30 when it is quite obvious that it is more than likely to be the cleaners or a staff member fcuking up the code number.
Different if it activated at 04.00, but then I wouldn't use either blues or two as you will be seen or heard.
all I can say is that ACPO are very concerned about this problem and other than putting a complete ban on fast driving to respond to calls they are doing everything that they can to reduce Police Vehicle accidents.
quote:
While I understand the reasons for not using sirens in some situations, does the same go for the blue lights?
During the day, no. Lights should always be used if the vehicle is to exceed the limits. At night it is a different matter as blue halogen can be seen from a long way off by those who would be looking to make an escape.
quote:
At least if the lights were going it would give other road users warning that a vehicle might be doing twice the 30 limit (and that's a conservative estimate).
Just curious about policies in different forces.
When I did my first advanced course, I was told by the instructor, if you have to exceed the limit put the lot on. It is easier to defend in court if it goes wrong (self preservation).
Sirens at 0300 tend to p*ss off those that like to sleep. They attract complaints!!
One of the problems with Emergency vehicles is now due to the apathy and stupidity of other road users -
I witnessed this last Thursday.
Had just left the M42 at the Henly/Shirley junction and was travelling towards Shirley - As I entered Shirley I saw a Police 4X4 in the road blocking the opposite carriageway with a man down in the road(presume he had been hit by a car but was not sure), I then heard and saw a paramedic and Ambulance coming straight at me - The road here is dual carriageway so I just moved to my left and allowed the vehicles to pass - other people would not move, where slow to move - Christ - they could not have missed them - An Astra and an Ambulance with Sirens and lights - Arse holes the lot of them.
Quote - from The Police Drivers Handbook
Positive attitudes that reduce accident risk are -
* - a tolerance and consideration for other road users
* - a realistic appraisal of your own abilities
* - a high degree of care for your own safety and that of your passengers and other road users.
And to quote madcop - a lot of serving officers do NOT adhere to the above.
I witnessed this last Thursday.
Had just left the M42 at the Henly/Shirley junction and was travelling towards Shirley - As I entered Shirley I saw a Police 4X4 in the road blocking the opposite carriageway with a man down in the road(presume he had been hit by a car but was not sure), I then heard and saw a paramedic and Ambulance coming straight at me - The road here is dual carriageway so I just moved to my left and allowed the vehicles to pass - other people would not move, where slow to move - Christ - they could not have missed them - An Astra and an Ambulance with Sirens and lights - Arse holes the lot of them.
Quote - from The Police Drivers Handbook
Positive attitudes that reduce accident risk are -
* - a tolerance and consideration for other road users
* - a realistic appraisal of your own abilities
* - a high degree of care for your own safety and that of your passengers and other road users.
And to quote madcop - a lot of serving officers do NOT adhere to the above.
quote:
quote:Not as much as that damned police helicopter over south-east London when I lived there
Sirens at 0300 tend to p*ss off those that like to sleep. They attract complaints!!
That was Tony on his way to meet the luvvies at Chequers. Safer than using the car. Too many people want a piece of him.
Beware of the dark skinned man with a'T'towell around his head, fastened with a snake belt and carrying exploding goat cheese sandwiches!
quote:
That was Tony on his way to meet the luvvies at Chequers. Safer than using the car. Too many people want a piece of him.
Beware of the dark skinned man with a'T'towell around his head, fastened with a snake belt and carrying exploding goat cheese sandwiches!
Have you got post traumatic stress or something Madcop? 
Well I hesitated at the time to suggest that wandering around shooters hill in the wee small hours, the victims was probably some sort of addled nutter. But if I had, I'd have been right.
Dammit - forgot the link: www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=622895&in_review_text_id=592984
>> Edited by CarZee on Tuesday 25th June 09:36
quote:So Mr Plod is unlikely to come out of this one too badly.
The woman who was killed when a police car ploughed into her was a prostitute who was addicted to crack cocaine and regularly walked in the middle of the road to try to flag down drivers.
Locals on the council estate where she lived - who knew her only as Erica - described how she took to prostitution to pay for her addiction.
They said that only last week she came close to being killed when her flat was set alight by an unknown attacker while she was there. She was re-housed locally but continued to patrol her usual beat of streets.
Dammit - forgot the link: www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=622895&in_review_text_id=592984
>> Edited by CarZee on Tuesday 25th June 09:36
quote:
I have been surprised to read so far no utter condemnation of the actions of the Police driver.
Ahh Madcop, Could this be because PH readers fully understand that:
1, speed is necessary sometimes,
2, accidents do happen,
3, Policemen deserve credit for doing their best to
drive safely and avoiding accidents whenever possible and that the few who do abuse the situation are the exception rather than the rule.
So in short you were expecting us to abuse the Officer cos we are supposedly anti police. It's clear from this thread that the majority of us are not anti police per se. We just object to the Police seeming to be so anti motorist. Basically we need respect BOTH ways!
Sympathies must go to the womans family. Prossie or not, crack head or not (another example of the effects of Tony's liberal drug laws???) it's still a tragic waste of life. Most sympathy must go to the driver though. He has to live with this, and even though it looks like it's not his fault it's still got to be terrible for him.
Andy 400se
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