Police under the spotlight again
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2069000/2069362.stm
I could make a number of comments but the first one that springs to mind is, how can it be safer for "managers in a control room" to assess a situation and decide if a pursuit is too risky than for the man on the spot to decide?
I could make a number of comments but the first one that springs to mind is, how can it be safer for "managers in a control room" to assess a situation and decide if a pursuit is too risky than for the man on the spot to decide?
Becasue they are "managers" - gotta be intelligent, right??
But seriously, there is an argument that taking the overall strategy decisions in a "controlled" environemnt should lead to better decisions being made - however, once a decison to go is made, then it has to be down to the officers on the ground to relay what is happening back to the centre for co-ordination. In a one-on-one situation, the "manager" would not be a good option, but when multiple cars and/or helicopters are involved, then co-ordination has to be a good thing.
Interesting point is that most deaths seem to be at weekends, late at night and in towns..... isn't there an underlying social issue here that would bear treatment, rather than the symptom of "chase deaths".. But I suppose social responsibility is beyond the wit of most of Government, be that local or central (of any party), so all we'll get will be an ever-more emasculated police force to defend us, more crime, and we'll be another step closer to the anarchy that is lurching towards us one step at a time..
And where is the correlation between the number of chases and the number of crashes - I'll wager that there has been a corresponding %age increase in the number of chases as well.
But seriously, there is an argument that taking the overall strategy decisions in a "controlled" environemnt should lead to better decisions being made - however, once a decison to go is made, then it has to be down to the officers on the ground to relay what is happening back to the centre for co-ordination. In a one-on-one situation, the "manager" would not be a good option, but when multiple cars and/or helicopters are involved, then co-ordination has to be a good thing.
Interesting point is that most deaths seem to be at weekends, late at night and in towns..... isn't there an underlying social issue here that would bear treatment, rather than the symptom of "chase deaths".. But I suppose social responsibility is beyond the wit of most of Government, be that local or central (of any party), so all we'll get will be an ever-more emasculated police force to defend us, more crime, and we'll be another step closer to the anarchy that is lurching towards us one step at a time..
And where is the correlation between the number of chases and the number of crashes - I'll wager that there has been a corresponding %age increase in the number of chases as well.
If I was a copper I'd be very annoyed with the BBC (just as we feel everytime they shaft us with their propaganda!)
I fail to believe that the BBC news service any longer provides any value whatsoever to this country. Some of their TV/Radio channels are just fine, but their news reporting just sucks bigtime. Waste of license money on people who do nothing but support the share price of muesli companies.
>> Edited by CarZee on Thursday 27th June 15:32
I fail to believe that the BBC news service any longer provides any value whatsoever to this country. Some of their TV/Radio channels are just fine, but their news reporting just sucks bigtime. Waste of license money on people who do nothing but support the share price of muesli companies.
>> Edited by CarZee on Thursday 27th June 15:32
At risk of being totally shot down in flames, this is my opinion of the whole issue.
1)Police are expected by Govt and the public to respond to and apprehend those in society that would offend against the laws that are made to protect the population from such acts.
Govt want to show that they are in control and being effective by introducing performance figures that Chief Constables must meet or exceed. To fail in this would draw criticism from the H.M.I reports that are done every year and the media publish failing performance, to the annoyance of the Public and the Govt.
The Chief Constable now stands to lose his job on the whim of the Home Secretary, and the relevant Force does not get its Certificate of Competance from the H.M.I. Therefore further funding for that force is reduced.
Chief Constables do not want to be in that position so they pressure the management tiers to increase performance from those that are at the point of contact with the initial problem ( the P.C. /Sgt ranks)
Daily briefings from middle management within the Police urge those at point of contact to seek out and arrest the people responsible for the increase in the overall crime figures.
Having got into whatever method of transport is allocated to the officer, a small proportion of his next 8 hours are spent trying to find the offenders and prevent or catch them when they offend.
2. Having found our offending person in or on whatever method of transport he choses to try and elude capture, many of them will refuse to surrender because they know that to attempt to escape and fail, but wreaking mayhem in the process will not infact increase the punishment that they may have received in the first instance.
(There is every benefit in them trying to escape whether they succeed or not)
3. In mind of the pressure put on the officer from the management so that he can retain his position within the organisation through evidencing his work (self assessment appraisals), he is determind that the offending person will not escape because that is what
a) He wants and needs to prove he is doing.
b) His management want him to do so
c) The Govt insist that he does so
d) The Public expect him to do so.
So he attempts to bring this offending person to meet justice.
If during this attempt, the offending person has the misfortune to crash his own/stolen car/bike fall off a roof when being chased on foot. Also in the process of this act, injure or kill someone else, then the flip side arrives on the officers doorstep.
TOTAL CRITICISM.
3. This starts from the bottom of the management structure within the Police and continues to gain momentum until it reaches the media, the Govt and the Public.
So we are now in the position where the officer on the ground is told to go out and aprehend people to increase performance, and when he attempts to do so and the person evades his attempts, he is then told by the Govt and his management that he must not do so.
No. He must do so but he must not put other people in danger when he does so. He can attempt to stop the offending person if he can but if they try really hard to get away, he must let them because that is what the management/ Govt/ Public want
Only a cuople of months ago Lord Woolf stated in the media that he did not want to see people in jail when they can be dealt with more cost effectively by tagging. He wasnt talking about those that just shop lift. The Govt do not want people in prison (too expensive and not in line with the liberal thinking gaurdian/ L.S.E. type lines)
Is it any wander that things have gone the way they have?
I am a great believer that Society gets the Policing it deserves. I think we are already at that point.
Is it any wonder that we are all confused
The Message Police get is that you want us to.....
No, you dont want us to.....
Someone has to make up their mind!
1)Police are expected by Govt and the public to respond to and apprehend those in society that would offend against the laws that are made to protect the population from such acts.
Govt want to show that they are in control and being effective by introducing performance figures that Chief Constables must meet or exceed. To fail in this would draw criticism from the H.M.I reports that are done every year and the media publish failing performance, to the annoyance of the Public and the Govt.
The Chief Constable now stands to lose his job on the whim of the Home Secretary, and the relevant Force does not get its Certificate of Competance from the H.M.I. Therefore further funding for that force is reduced.
Chief Constables do not want to be in that position so they pressure the management tiers to increase performance from those that are at the point of contact with the initial problem ( the P.C. /Sgt ranks)
Daily briefings from middle management within the Police urge those at point of contact to seek out and arrest the people responsible for the increase in the overall crime figures.
Having got into whatever method of transport is allocated to the officer, a small proportion of his next 8 hours are spent trying to find the offenders and prevent or catch them when they offend.
2. Having found our offending person in or on whatever method of transport he choses to try and elude capture, many of them will refuse to surrender because they know that to attempt to escape and fail, but wreaking mayhem in the process will not infact increase the punishment that they may have received in the first instance.
(There is every benefit in them trying to escape whether they succeed or not)
3. In mind of the pressure put on the officer from the management so that he can retain his position within the organisation through evidencing his work (self assessment appraisals), he is determind that the offending person will not escape because that is what
a) He wants and needs to prove he is doing.
b) His management want him to do so
c) The Govt insist that he does so
d) The Public expect him to do so.
So he attempts to bring this offending person to meet justice.
If during this attempt, the offending person has the misfortune to crash his own/stolen car/bike fall off a roof when being chased on foot. Also in the process of this act, injure or kill someone else, then the flip side arrives on the officers doorstep.
TOTAL CRITICISM.
3. This starts from the bottom of the management structure within the Police and continues to gain momentum until it reaches the media, the Govt and the Public.
So we are now in the position where the officer on the ground is told to go out and aprehend people to increase performance, and when he attempts to do so and the person evades his attempts, he is then told by the Govt and his management that he must not do so.
No. He must do so but he must not put other people in danger when he does so. He can attempt to stop the offending person if he can but if they try really hard to get away, he must let them because that is what the management/ Govt/ Public want
Only a cuople of months ago Lord Woolf stated in the media that he did not want to see people in jail when they can be dealt with more cost effectively by tagging. He wasnt talking about those that just shop lift. The Govt do not want people in prison (too expensive and not in line with the liberal thinking gaurdian/ L.S.E. type lines)
Is it any wander that things have gone the way they have?
I am a great believer that Society gets the Policing it deserves. I think we are already at that point.
Is it any wonder that we are all confused
The Message Police get is that you want us to.....
No, you dont want us to.....
Someone has to make up their mind!
Madcop - is it any wonder that the police struggle to recruit. You guys are being used as a political football and you have my sympathy FWIW
Did you see the story about forced treatment of the mentally ill the other day? Same thing, it's all very well whinging about the rights of the individual but when some nutter rapes and kills someone because there was no way legally to keep them in a secure place we get a load of b@llocks about not protecting the public.
Did you see the story about forced treatment of the mentally ill the other day? Same thing, it's all very well whinging about the rights of the individual but when some nutter rapes and kills someone because there was no way legally to keep them in a secure place we get a load of b@llocks about not protecting the public.
quote:agreed.
Madcop - is it any wonder that the police struggle to recruit. You guys are being used as a political football and you have my sympathy FWIW
quote:Totally - and lets not forget that everyone was up in arms when the Tories introduced care in the community.. Now Bliar wants to reverse the situation and they're all up in arms..
Did you see the story about forced treatment of the mentally ill the other day? Same thing, it's all very well whinging about the rights of the individual but when some nutter rapes and kills someone because there was no way legally to keep them in a secure place we get a load of b@llocks about not protecting the public.
Problem is this is a very dangerous area, since locking people up who might or might not have a mental illness, without a transparent and (realistically) legally challengable assessment process is very bad news.
quote:
Madcop - is it any wonder that the police struggle to recruit. You guys are being used as a political football and you have my sympathy FWIW
Did you see the story about forced treatment of the mentally ill the other day? Same thing, it's all very well whinging about the rights of the individual but when some nutter rapes and kills someone because there was no way legally to keep them in a secure place we get a load of b@llocks about not protecting the public.
I'm with you on the support of plod for this - talk about a confused message - thats what you get when politicians (short-term jobbers the lot of them) meddle with things they know NOTHING about (thats everything BTW) and manage to f**k it up for everyone.
Howwever, on the mental patients...I thought that was total c**p.... how can you lock someone up just because they are a perceived danger. If they have history/have been convicted then fair enuff, but just to lock someone up because they MIGHT do something - thats a BIG NO NO. Where does it end - lets lock up all males over 18 cos they MIGHT be criminals... NOPE.
quote:I don't believe it is always quite that way - my Sister in law is a nurse for the mentally handicapped & for many years worked in a sheltered hospital/housing scheme. They had many patients/inmates who where held there - and were happy there. They had a degree of autonomy, they made various crafts & earned a bit of money. Since care in the community - all these people have (sometimes literally) been turned on the streets, where they are victims of abuse/petty crime etc & generally lead fairly depressing lives. Yes some of these people were violent & occasionally had to be restrained - all the nurses were trained in self-defence - now these people end up in court/prison for offences they don't understand. If you asked any of these people which they preferred, I think I know the answer....
However, on the mental patients...I thought that was total c**p.... how can you lock someone up just because they are a perceived danger. If they have history/have been convicted then fair enuff, but just to lock someone up because they MIGHT do something - thats a BIG NO NO. Where does it end - lets lock up all males over 18 cos they MIGHT be criminals... NOPE.
cheers,
Craig
quote:
...... sheltered hospital/housing scheme. They had many patients/inmates who where held there - and were happy there. They had a degree of autonomy, they made various crafts & earned a bit of money...
As I understood it they weren't talking about sheltered accommodation, they were talking about returing to the old Mental Institutions.... Not good!
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