RE: The end of the petrol station?
Friday 22nd April 2005
Fill your natural gas-powered Honda at homeIs this the beginning of the end of the petrol station? American Honda has announced that it's started limited sales of its natural gas-powered Civic GX saloon, paired with a new home-refuelling appliance called Phill. California-only for the moment, Honda reckons it gives motorists the chance to say goodbye to gasoline.
The end of the petrol station?
Fill your gas-powered car at home
Fill your natural gas-powered Honda at home
The firm said the car boasts the cleanest internal combustion engine ever tested by the US EPA and the lowest EPA-estimated annual fuel cost of any new saloon including hybrids.
The Phill appliance, manufactured and marketed by FuelMaker Corporation, is a home refuelling appliance that allows drivers to re-fuel their vehicles at home using their existing natural gas supply. Through a partnership with FuelMaker, the Phill appliance will be available for lease and installation through 17 authorised Honda Civic GX dealers in California.
US motorists who drive natural gas-powered cars are offered government incentives like single passenger access to car-pool lanes and tax deductions -- much like here really.
Discussion
I rented a natural gas Honda in San Francisco several years ago. It felt just like any other Honda. It had about a 200 mile range and a tank that took up much more trunk space than a gas tank.
Filling up at at the only station in SF was a dream. Nobody there--no attendants--just a credit card machine, some instructions and a nozzle. After hooking up and putting in my credit card, the fill up was very fast. I think it was quicker than filling with gasoline.
They need more stations for out of town travel, but for running around the city it works fine. Filling up at home probably takes 8 hour instead of a minute or two at a station because the home pumps are small and slow.
I like it. It's much cheaper than gasoline, much cleaner to handle, and not much drawback other than range for a given tank size.
Cheers,
Rick
www.commutercars.com
Filling up at at the only station in SF was a dream. Nobody there--no attendants--just a credit card machine, some instructions and a nozzle. After hooking up and putting in my credit card, the fill up was very fast. I think it was quicker than filling with gasoline.
They need more stations for out of town travel, but for running around the city it works fine. Filling up at home probably takes 8 hour instead of a minute or two at a station because the home pumps are small and slow.
I like it. It's much cheaper than gasoline, much cleaner to handle, and not much drawback other than range for a given tank size.
Cheers,
Rick
www.commutercars.com
Its a good idea, and a step in the right direction, but the lack of infrastructure to support these types of vehicles just makes it harder for them to catch on. Maybe home refueling is just what we need! Cant imagine its a cheap home installation though.
The next step will be hydrogen powered vehicles, so you wont even need a gas supply, just electricity and the machine that makes hydrogen, no more petrol stations, just top up when you need!
(sorry, ive gotten way, way ahead of myself here and no doubt sound like a uni lecturer, I shouldnt be getting excited about such things. Away to smack myself in the face with a conrod )
The next step will be hydrogen powered vehicles, so you wont even need a gas supply, just electricity and the machine that makes hydrogen, no more petrol stations, just top up when you need!
(sorry, ive gotten way, way ahead of myself here and no doubt sound like a uni lecturer, I shouldnt be getting excited about such things. Away to smack myself in the face with a conrod )
sabre said:
Nice idea, but isnt the drawback the fact this is also using up a natural resource we cannot replenish...or dont I understand how we get Nat Gas...aprt from curry and beans
What is particularly cool, though, is that it is harder to "stain" gas like red diesel. Natural gas is dirt cheap in comparison to petrol - as it does not suffer the same sort of fuel duties. This is the same as electricity.
The big advantage of electric or Natural gas powered cars is that it is impossible to distinguish between the fuel used for heating and lighting the home and what is in the car.
It will make it a LOT harder for Government to tax motoring through fuel.
GOOD - you may say.
Why do you think they are so interested in road pricing!
Personally - I reckon they will have to give up on road pricing as impractical. Alternative fuel vehicles will make fuel taxes impractical. So they'll shove it all on road tax. More like £160 a MONTH.
My 'ol man has an NGV powered Ford Transit.
He used to install the Fuelmaker equipment, in this country (UK). I think it was mainly for taxis and fleet vehicles. The programme was run by British Gas, and they felt that as he was their contractor, he ought to have an NGV vehicle also.
The vehice was converted by an aftermarket outfit, and he installed the fuelmaker himself (I think it came gratis).
The problem was that the Van, even under petrol power, after conversion was underpowered.
They moved, and I think he felt that it wasn't worth the expense of another fuelmaker installation.
The work for this setup, stopped pretty quickly, I'd guess he did about twenty installations. The reason it dried up was that British Gas felt that they couldn't sell the solution, because people (particularly the oil companies) preferred the LPG alternative.
>> Edited to add (UK)
>> Further edited to add...
This was about eight years ago.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 22 April 21:55
He used to install the Fuelmaker equipment, in this country (UK). I think it was mainly for taxis and fleet vehicles. The programme was run by British Gas, and they felt that as he was their contractor, he ought to have an NGV vehicle also.
The vehice was converted by an aftermarket outfit, and he installed the fuelmaker himself (I think it came gratis).
The problem was that the Van, even under petrol power, after conversion was underpowered.
They moved, and I think he felt that it wasn't worth the expense of another fuelmaker installation.
The work for this setup, stopped pretty quickly, I'd guess he did about twenty installations. The reason it dried up was that British Gas felt that they couldn't sell the solution, because people (particularly the oil companies) preferred the LPG alternative.
>> Edited to add (UK)
>> Further edited to add...
This was about eight years ago.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 22 April 21:55
Don said:
Nice idea, but isnt the drawback the fact this is also using up a natural resource we cannot replenish...or dont I understand how we get Nat Gas...aprt from curry and beans
What is particularly cool, though, is that it is harder to "stain" gas like red diesel. Natural gas is dirt cheap in comparison to petrol - as it does not suffer the same sort of fuel duties.
snip
So they'll shove it all on road tax. More like £160 a MONTH.
@sabre : have a look at this, they are searching for funds to make it as big as a fridge to fit in everyones garage : www.stuartenergy.com/main_our_products.html
You basicly get solar/wind/geothermal energy and store it until you need it in that SES thing and use it as a power generator or possibly refuelling station..
@don : ..and then the government can say we have to pay more road taxes, but as hydrogen out of green energy is as clean as a whistle, they can NO LONGER SAY WE HAVE TO PAY BECAUSE WE ARE POLLUTING! Hah!
Not so good news for politicians then : if they no longer can put us on a guilt trip to extort the last drop of cash, whatever next? Maybe they'll even have to come forward and explain what they are doing with our money?
With that in mind, it'll be a cold day in hell before this technology gets government support.
errek72 said:
sabre said:
Nice idea, but isnt the drawback the fact this is also using up a natural resource we cannot replenish...or dont I understand how we get Nat Gas...aprt from curry and beans
What is particularly cool, though, is that it is harder to "stain" gas like red diesel. Natural gas is dirt cheap in comparison to petrol - as it does not suffer the same sort of fuel duties.
snip
So they'll shove it all on road tax. More like £160 a MONTH.
@sabre : have a look at this, they are searching for funds to make it as big as a fridge to fit in everyones garage : www.stuartenergy.com/main_our_products.html
You basicly get solar/wind/geothermal energy and store it until you need it in that SES thing and use it as a power generator or possibly refuelling station..
@don : ..and then the government can say we have to pay more road taxes, but as hydrogen out of green energy is as clean as a whistle, they can NO LONGER SAY WE HAVE TO PAY BECAUSE WE ARE POLLUTING! Hah!
Not so good news for politicians then : if they no longer can put us on a guilt trip to extort the last drop of cash, whatever next? Maybe they'll even have to come forward and explain what they are doing with our money?
With that in mind, it'll be a cold day in hell before this technology gets government support.
Errek, that is an industrial size electrolyser unit, it takes pure water an splits it into hydrogen and water. Thing is it costs about the same as an average house!! And a good deal more electricity to run. I see where your coming from though....
Natural gas, or methane as its technically known is very easy to create from all the biowaste that this country produces, whether we could produce enough to supply all the vehicles in this country is a different matter.
Or we could have all living things walking round with a bottle up there arse!
Could be another use for cows!
Or we could have all living things walking round with a bottle up there arse!
Could be another use for cows!
[quote=Don]
The big advantage of electric or Natural gas powered cars is that it is impossible to distinguish between the fuel used for heating and lighting the home and what is in the car.
It will make it a LOT harder for Government to tax motoring through fuel.
[quote]
Quite right, they'll always find a way.
The government has proven quite innovative when it comes to ways to tax us and rake in the readies.
The big advantage of electric or Natural gas powered cars is that it is impossible to distinguish between the fuel used for heating and lighting the home and what is in the car.
It will make it a LOT harder for Government to tax motoring through fuel.
[quote]
Quite right, they'll always find a way.
The government has proven quite innovative when it comes to ways to tax us and rake in the readies.
Like the idea, however...
The goverment will still need to rape the middle classes somehow. I expect road tax will go through the roof, so you will be no better off, except you'll be driving a milk float.
Remember when diesel was so cheap in the 80's. Prices rocketed as people bought the TDI's.
Can't see America bothering anyway. Considering 99.9% of global pollution comes from factories, then planes, then ships, then trains, followed by 0.01% for cars. It makes bugger all difference to go green.
The goverment will still need to rape the middle classes somehow. I expect road tax will go through the roof, so you will be no better off, except you'll be driving a milk float.
Remember when diesel was so cheap in the 80's. Prices rocketed as people bought the TDI's.
Can't see America bothering anyway. Considering 99.9% of global pollution comes from factories, then planes, then ships, then trains, followed by 0.01% for cars. It makes bugger all difference to go green.
gofasterrosssco said:
Errek, that is an industrial size electrolyser unit, it takes pure water an splits it into hydrogen and water. Thing is it costs about the same as an average house!! And a good deal more electricity to run. I see where your coming from though....
I get your point, and I wasn't saying its cheap or a valid alternative (yet), but it's hardly mass-produced (again, yet) and will not be until either big business or a government (if one country does, the genie is out of the bottle) gives it some support.
I heard one of their investors during a radio interview and their aim is to make it a household appliance.
These guys even had a white house-audience some months ago, so it looks like their ideas are getting noticed.. for better or for worse.
Although I agree that we'll end up paying at least as much taxes as we do now, I look forward to seeing politicians explaing why, while not being able to use the word 'pollution'.
Marquis_Rex said:
[quote=Don]
The big advantage of electric or Natural gas powered cars is that it is impossible to distinguish between the fuel used for heating and lighting the home and what is in the car.
It will make it a LOT harder for Government to tax motoring through fuel.
[quote]
Quite right, they'll always find a way.
The government has proven quite innovative when it comes to ways to tax us and rake in the readies.
Surely, all they need to do is to get the supplier to pipe it through a seperate meter and bung any tax on gas supplied through that meter?
Piccy mate
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