Friday 1st July 2005

First fuel cell car delivered

Honda breaks ground with new motive power

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Fuel cell vehicles -- the future?

Honda reckoned it has just delivered the first fuel cell powered vehicle for normal family use this week, and that it marks "a historic achievement in the evolution of the automobile and the advancement of future transportation technology".

It has leased its FCX, a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle, to the world’s first individual customers, Jon and Sandy Spallino of Redondo Beach, California. The Spallinos agreed to lease a 2005 Honda FCX for two years.

Honda claimed to be the only automotive manufacturer to certify its fuel cell vehicle for regular daily use and the first to offer its technology to an individual customer. The Spallinos will use the FCX in everyday normal use, including commuting to work to Orange County, trips to school for their children, shopping and household errands.

California Hydrogen Highway

The Spallino family, living in the Los Angeles area, will be among the first individuals to patronise the first of California’s Hydrogen Highway refuelling stations, a state-wide infrastructure being built to offer hydrogen to private individuals. In April, California's governor Arnie Schwarzenegger announced a commitment to complete the project by 2010.

Honda FCX on the road

The Spallino family will be the first of several FCX vehicles to be leased to individual customers over the next year, said Honda. The company also leases a fleet of 13 FCXs that are in daily use with six public municipal customers in California, New York and Nevada.

The Honda FCX is the first hydrogen vehicle to be certified by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and California’s Air Resources Board (CARB). The EPA certified the 2005 FCX as a Tier-2 Bin 1, and CARB certified the FCX as a Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV).

The 2005 FCX model is powered by Honda’s originally developed fuel cell stack (Honda FC Stack) with the capability to start and operate at sub-freezing temperatures as low as -20 degrees Celsius, along with increased performance, range and fuel efficiency compared with earlier models. The FCX was the first fuel cell vehicle to be listed in the EPA’s fuel economy guide in 2003. The 2005 FCX carries an EPA city/highway rating of 62/51 miles per gallon and a range of 190 miles.

Honda said nothing about how much fossil fuel would be burnt in order to generate hydrogen. And isn't it a pity it's such a dull motor?

[johnny88]

Problems w/ hydrogen:

- Highly explosive :
- Short Range

Why Bioethanol is the way foreward:
- Acts just like petrol with less emmissions, carbon neutral and 20% more power.
- Diesels need no mods to run biodiesel
- Petrols need a $100 / £50 mods to fuel system and valves to run any combination of petrol/bioethanol.

[Rob_the_Sparky]

Not just a problem to generate it either, compressing it also takes a lot of energy!

[gofasterrosssco]

johnny88 said:

Problems w/ hydrogen: - Highly explosive : - Short Range Why Bioethanol is the way foreward: - Acts just like petrol with less emmissions, carbon neutral and 20% more power. - Diesels need no mods to run biodiesel - Petrols need a $100 / £50 mods to fuel system and valves to run any combination of petrol/bioethanol.

Highly Explosive - Not anymore than a traditional petrol filled fuel tank, tends to burn rather than explode if that makes sense. H2 also has much less radiant heat when burning and dissipates very quickly in air

Short range - Depends on the storage method, think they use compressed H2 storage running at around 3600psi, higher pressure composite tanks, as developed by GM, should be able to operate at around 7200psi, doubling range. Besides, 190 miles aint too bad......

Agree with using Bioethanol and biodiesel, but these will probably run as a mixture with petrol and diesel in the near future so manufacturers can keep their engine designs the same for different fuel combo's.

Now a biodiesel/FC hybrid may be the way forward...??

My 2p

[muppett]

The usage of pure hydrogen (a non-primary fuel) in the Honda stack does seem slightly pointless since the hydrogen is most likely derived from fossil fuels, with the production of CO2 in the reformation process. Unless, of course, the Californians have resorted to using wind power to split water into hydrogen (highly unlikely given their climate!)

Biofuel is certainly a promising solution, both for use in internal combustion engines (with mininal engine modifications) and also in fuel cells. The Honda stack is only capable of running on pure H2 - carbon impurities tent to poison the cells. Other types of fuel cell exist (eg solid oxide fuel cells) which are capable of running directly on biofuels, with less carbon emissions than with a combusion engine. Trouble is their operating temperatures are currently too high for mobile use. Give it a while . . . .

[mybrainhurts]

Hang on...

This thing spits out water vapour....

97% of greenhouse gas is......

WATER VAPOUR......


We're all going to die........we're all going to die........

[muppett]

Water vapour is easy to collect though, a simple condensation.

Who knows, perhaps the water may be split back into hydrogen (essentially the same setup as a fuel cell, except operating in reverse)

[Newromancer]

mybrainhurts said:

Hang on... This thing spits out water vapour.... 97% of greenhouse gas is...... WATER VAPOUR...... We're all going to die........we're all going to die........

Hihihi...


The fact is, I like hydrogen.
As far as I'm aware, there is only one long term downside - it can make a loud bang.

But everything else?
The energie source used to produce the hydrogen can be replaced far more eays. What ever is available ... take a look at france fiusion ractor, if that thing turns out to work.
And be sure, the damn thing will improve fast, the first cars dreamed about a 190mile radius.

I'm waiting for my daily drive to become a hydrogen car for a long time now, come on, speed up!

[cotty]

Typical spend all the money on the engine and none on the styling

[Robbo64]

I was thinking the same thing Cotty...why do these things have to be ugly?!(I'm expecting someone to come along now with a gorgeous one...)

[danmangt40]

honestly, after reading Car and Driver's drive of the FCX in this month's issue, it looks to be being pressed forward because it will only INCREASE our purchases from the middle east, as it takes more fuel to produce the equivalent motion per car in the natural gas to hydrogen product to car motion, regardless of whether less of that fuel is squandered into heat and emissions in turning fuel into motion. And yes, water vapor certainly is cleaner an emission than the NOx that would inevitably come of diesel proliferation in our country, but dammit, we could simplify the whole process if we tried electric cars again! battery technology is improving more usefully than fuel cells and super-capacitors! GM EV1 leasees know what I'm talking about. No electric motor is going to get you weak in the knees the way a freed-up ford 4.6 is, but in terms of pure transportation, that's the way to go forward!

[8Pack]

mybrainhurts said:

We're all going to die........we're all going to die........

I say, steady on old chap! We all have to go some time y'know.

[dilbert]

mybrainhurts said:

The fact is, I like hydrogen. As far as I'm aware, there is only one long term downside - it can make a loud bang.

C'mon it's only a squeaky pop.

At least it's a cute way to go!

[8Pack]

dilbert said:

mybrainhurts said: The fact is, I like hydrogen. As far as I'm aware, there is only one long term downside - it can make a loud bang. C'mon it's only a squeaky pop. At least it's a cute way to go!

Well, helium's more fun! and safer. no damned use in the car though

'ere, do you suppose that ole' MBH is sniffing hydrogen? No wonder his brain hurts!

[cb1118]

it is the technology of the future

for more informations of coming rivals (from Toyota)
www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/fines.html

anyway, the technology is patented by USA
(NASDAQ = QTWW)
the company recently has contract to supply to the US Army (as alternative fuel vehicles testing program)

according to the schedule, Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be introduced in a large scale from 2010.

currently, major auto brands (toyota, honda, GM)
are all have contract with NASDAQ=QTWW in developing this technology.

I personally make alot of money by trading this stock
many buys and sells whenever the stock price hits US$4.00 or less, and sell it when the prices go up ontop of US$4.00 (great stock to trade short term, and still have support for long term investing)

**the company is expecting to start making profit from 2006, the sales of the products will generate profit higher than its cost of R&D.



remarks, according to other informations related to Hydrogen power,
the technology already has a breakthrough in both
(1)the size of the engine, converter
(2)the energy to produce hydrogen is lowered to a point that it is "commercially profitable"

[cb1118]

anyway, before the roads are filled with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

the next wave will be Hybrid system sportscar
(the first car is very possible to be the Toyota Volta)
www.gizmag.co.uk/go/2685/

and then either Honda(the next NSX??) or Porsche will come next.
www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1568.html

**I think the next NSX must be Hybrid to set it to get bigger attention.
just like in 1991, the NSX was introduced as an all Aluminium body sportscar, and all the F1 technology add-on.
the next NSX should be a hybrid in order to set it as a frontier in both technology and speed.
at least, it is a good way to change people's mind that Supersportscar do not mean the necessary of V8 or V12, it can be by other way.

the first NSX is a failure in market (looking at the sales)because
the use of V6
**other rivals of Lamoborghini or Ferrari all have V8 or V12
**the closest thing is Porsche...and yes, Porsche sounds like "more famous" & "more expensive" than HONDA
**even with conventional engine technology, the Porsche and the Lamorghini have to make smaller,cheaper cars to get younger buyers/new buyers
(such as the new Porsche Cayman sportscar)
while the Ferrari has the Maserati to do this part of the sales.
**there was a failure before NSX, it's Jaguar XJ220
it was first introduced as a V12 or V8 Twin Turbo
and there was alot of money deposit before the car was developed
when the XJ220 was finally introduced as a V6 Twin Turbo, at least 70% of the pre-ordering was immediately cancelled!!
(obviously, people expect V8 or V12 with this price range)


therefore, from past experience, I think NSX can keep its V6, but it must not be a V6 like everyone else.
it must be something very new and unique (to match with the aluminium body)
the Hybrid will be the perfect match

[cb1118]

Bioethanol is also the future
(made from tree leafs or orange peels, amazing!!)

however, carrying ethanol around (in bottles) can also be dangerous of explosion
no one can control how the bottle of ethanol being handle by individual, making it even more dangerous than hydrogen
**at least hydrogen is stored in a safety-certified fuel tank in a fixed environment (such as in a vehicle)

bioethanol is better option to use in small power generators

[phase90]

Remember, the Hindenburg did not blow up, it burned up. It burned because the skin was painted in what amounts to rocket fuel...