RE: Congestion charging is the future
Monday 25th July 2005
There is no alternative?Britain’s 10 biggest cities will be hit with a London-style congestion charge by 2011, according to Autocar magazine.
Congestion charging is the future
Autocar investigation finds no alternative
There is no alternative?
The magazine has uncovered evidence that as well as applying subtle pressure the government has tied the supply of public finances to the introduction of city centre tolling. No congestion charge means less funding.
Rob Aherne, Autocar editor said: "If you live in or near a major city, keep an eye on your local newspaper because a congestion charge in one form or another will be on its way very soon".
Autocar also reveals that the government has wider plans to introduce nationwide road tolling as early as 2015. Such a system is likely to use GPS satellite tracking or DSRC (Digital short Range Communications) which uses microwaves to communicate with roadside beacons. Both systems would require all vehicles to be fitted with an in car kit that will cost around £30.00 per car.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling has already gone on record saying that road tolling could mean British motorists paying up to £1.34 per mile to drive at the busiest times.
The costs of implementing such systems are massive, too. Sources suggest that the financial outlay to administer a nationwide system would be in the region of £23 billion. This figure does not include fitting every car with the technology, or the billions that will be required for the thousands of roadside beacons.
Rob Aherne said: "The introduction of road charging will dramatically affect the way of life for a huge number of people, especially those who live in the countryside or just cannot afford to live near their place of work. Road charging could affect many people’s quality of life."
The view from academia and business
It's worth adding too that most recent transport studies and executives of companies in the transportation industry believe that road charging is the only way to reduce congestion, especially but not exclusively, in cities. For them, roads are a resource that it's becoming harder to increase. As a result, they argue that the only way is to stem demand for a scarce resource by charging for it. And the technology that makes this a possibility is here today -- and looks likely to be implemented over the next ten years.
Discussion
All that road tolling will do is strangle businesses. The cost of going into London now is £8. The courier company I work for passes that on to its clients for each job. In many cases that adds more then 30% to the cost of a job. Ultimately the businesses inside the zone end up paying, in decreased footfall in the case of shops, and increased costs in the case of other businesses. So instead of creating a transport infrastructure that makes things easier for business in this country, the government wants to strangle it instead. Watch as, slowly, more and more international companies move their European HQ out of Britain and other international companies decide not to set up here in the first place.
>> Edited by king arthur on Monday 25th July 11:40
>> Edited by king arthur on Monday 25th July 11:40
this is the nature of the beast.
Luckily we will see Labour sabotaging the very economy that has helped them to stay in power. There will be a reaction sooner or later when taxes will force the hands of these "politicians"
This is the way Labour solve problems.. taxing them.
It is not possible to continue to pound motorists and small businesses. Unfortunately before seeing the light we need to hit the bottom
A67
Luckily we will see Labour sabotaging the very economy that has helped them to stay in power. There will be a reaction sooner or later when taxes will force the hands of these "politicians"
This is the way Labour solve problems.. taxing them.
It is not possible to continue to pound motorists and small businesses. Unfortunately before seeing the light we need to hit the bottom
A67
This is economic madness! What are the government playing at, except trying to find new ways to rip the taxpayer off!!!
And what will happen when an untaxed, uninsured, probably erroneously-registered car drives through the zone?!? Absolutely feck-all, because the government doesn't care about those who can't pay!!!
And what will happen when an untaxed, uninsured, probably erroneously-registered car drives through the zone?!? Absolutely feck-all, because the government doesn't care about those who can't pay!!!
So, you'd have to assume that this would not be a compulsory device fitted to the car. If you have not got the device then you would have to pay for a tax disc which would cost many times the amount it does now. If it is compulsory then what about the non UK registered cars that tourists drive into the country?
This will only be accepted once it becomes the lesser of two evils, you will not be forced to have the device fitted but it may end up being cost effective to do so.
Making it compulsory just means that someone with money, time and effort needs to get it to the court of human rights and the goverment enforcement will become illegal, job done.
This will only be accepted once it becomes the lesser of two evils, you will not be forced to have the device fitted but it may end up being cost effective to do so.
Making it compulsory just means that someone with money, time and effort needs to get it to the court of human rights and the goverment enforcement will become illegal, job done.
stormcloud said:
So, you'd have to assume that this would not be a compulsory device fitted to the car. If you have not got the device then you would have to pay for a tax disc which would cost many times the amount it does now. If it is compulsory then what about the non UK registered cars that tourists drive into the country?
This will only be accepted once it becomes the lesser of two evils, you will not be forced to have the device fitted but it may end up being cost effective to do so.
Making it compulsory just means that someone with money, time and effort needs to get it to the court of human rights and the goverment enforcement will become illegal, job done.
Excellent post. Your argument that is will not be compulsory but will be highly cost effective in terms of minimising taxation is a compelling one.
Yep. £1000 road tax or a £30 quid box and £200 - £400 a year and Joe Public will come quietly. But a few years afterwards...
I hate the salami slicing tactics this shower of shit we call a government abuse...
If congestion charging forces companies out of the city centre then is it such a bad thing?
Housing close to city centres is expensive and transport already difficult. I've never understood why companies feel the need to be in London anyway, everything is more expensive and it is hard for workers to get there, surely it would make economic sense to mot be there in the first place anyway.
I travel quite a distance to work and it seems many of us now do. If this trend could be reversed then it must be a good thing.
However, don't get me wrong. Personally think fitting a GPS or similar type of device to every car in the country is nuts. Petrol tax is a much cheaper to implement method of achieving the same thing (just rather less focussed).
Rob
P.S. Wonder how the cost of implementing a GPS based system per year stacks up against building more roads??!
Housing close to city centres is expensive and transport already difficult. I've never understood why companies feel the need to be in London anyway, everything is more expensive and it is hard for workers to get there, surely it would make economic sense to mot be there in the first place anyway.
I travel quite a distance to work and it seems many of us now do. If this trend could be reversed then it must be a good thing.
However, don't get me wrong. Personally think fitting a GPS or similar type of device to every car in the country is nuts. Petrol tax is a much cheaper to implement method of achieving the same thing (just rather less focussed).
Rob
P.S. Wonder how the cost of implementing a GPS based system per year stacks up against building more roads??!
This issue raises another point. IMHO our economy is dependent on a mobile workforce where workers get experience within a wide range of organisations and that experience benefits your current employer and the economy. The current trend for owner occupiers and high house costs mean that this is stifled because people won't move jobs cos they can't afford to. The maximum untaxed benefit for moving house is about £8k and thats not oven close to the costs of moving even an average house. The average communte time is about an hour as people find diffrent jobs within driving distance. If people are forced by lentillists to move next door to their workplace they will never move providing an even greater advese affect on the effectiveness of business and the economy.
Sorry Rant over
Spunagain
Sorry Rant over
Spunagain
Please note from my last post, I have made a cost effective comment on the general public to accept the lesser of two evils. Leaving the car at home or considering other means of travel was never even an option. People do not pay for the privilege of driving at the moment, they may pay for petrol but even with the tax on fuel at the pump, people just get used to paying it to keep the car running. People will pay for the flexibility that car transport provides, they will pay as little as they can get away with, but it will not change habits. Even if people struggle to pay the charges, they will, the Goverment seem to think we have a choice.
I would like to think that the Goverment have not considered road charging for its own monetary gain, but it will not provide the solution the Goverment is looking for and the only benefit will be for extra revenue. As we all know only too well, once the Goverment or local council have a revenue source, they have a future dependancy on the funds. So the scheme which will not work will also not be reversable.
A great number of people start at 9, finish at 5. It is no coincidence that the A13 out of London is jammed at 6 and empty at 12. Charging people will mean poorer drivers, not fewer ones.
I would like to think that the Goverment have not considered road charging for its own monetary gain, but it will not provide the solution the Goverment is looking for and the only benefit will be for extra revenue. As we all know only too well, once the Goverment or local council have a revenue source, they have a future dependancy on the funds. So the scheme which will not work will also not be reversable.
A great number of people start at 9, finish at 5. It is no coincidence that the A13 out of London is jammed at 6 and empty at 12. Charging people will mean poorer drivers, not fewer ones.
This all depends of course on Labour staying in power.
They attracted 36% of the vote at the last election and only achieved a comfortable majority due to the voting system.
The boundaries are changing at the next election to reflect the 2001 census. If the Tories can get better organised and choose the right leader we might be able to chuck the ba*tards out at the next election.
They attracted 36% of the vote at the last election and only achieved a comfortable majority due to the voting system.
The boundaries are changing at the next election to reflect the 2001 census. If the Tories can get better organised and choose the right leader we might be able to chuck the ba*tards out at the next election.
Every phone call you make, mobile or landline is monitored in the UK, your mobile phone acts (effectively)as a tracking device when switched on (you don't need to be using it)......and now the goverment want to fit a GPS tracker to every car in the UK and want every person in the UK to carry and identity card, and you will soon be fined £1000 for changing address without notifying the government, by the way one requirement in the ID card bill is that you provide details of every address that you ever lived at.
This is more about control of the population than raising tax revenue as the cost will be paid by the fees.
This is more about control of the population than raising tax revenue as the cost will be paid by the fees.
Thirty quid for a magic GPS/route recognition/secure communitcator etc? Fixed to your car (needing an ariel and power) without damage for free?
They are (in the words of mockney wideboys) 'avin a giraffe.
If the govn't wanted to reduce congestion, they could sort out this county's abysmally inconsistent planning rules that separate out work and homes and places shops out of town.
They could discourage borderline unsafe drivers and the belief that everyone, regardless of ability, deserves to drive. A 'still safe to drive' test twenty years after your first test would bring in revenue and get rid of people who shouldn't be there in the first place.
They could work to ensure that cars cannot be driven without a current MOT, Insurance and Tax. The high cost of driving at present doesn't stop people from owning cars, but does encourage people to drive unsafe vehicles without insurance.
They could offer tax breaks to park and ride and park and work schemes. They could break up science parks and industrial estates and encourage work places to be set up near available housing.
They could introduce efficient school bus schemes, and work harder on walk-to-school schemes and ensuring that schools are seen as part of a local community, rather than a distant location only reachable with a large 4x4.
They could force some sense into the rail network.
They could try to think in a joined up manner, rather than letting some tin-pot advisor go off on some technological dream trip. Congestion charging is typical of the ring-tones business model where clients are micro managed and charged one drip at a time in the hope that they won't notice that they've given up their freedoms and paid dearly for it.
They are (in the words of mockney wideboys) 'avin a giraffe.
If the govn't wanted to reduce congestion, they could sort out this county's abysmally inconsistent planning rules that separate out work and homes and places shops out of town.
They could discourage borderline unsafe drivers and the belief that everyone, regardless of ability, deserves to drive. A 'still safe to drive' test twenty years after your first test would bring in revenue and get rid of people who shouldn't be there in the first place.
They could work to ensure that cars cannot be driven without a current MOT, Insurance and Tax. The high cost of driving at present doesn't stop people from owning cars, but does encourage people to drive unsafe vehicles without insurance.
They could offer tax breaks to park and ride and park and work schemes. They could break up science parks and industrial estates and encourage work places to be set up near available housing.
They could introduce efficient school bus schemes, and work harder on walk-to-school schemes and ensuring that schools are seen as part of a local community, rather than a distant location only reachable with a large 4x4.
They could force some sense into the rail network.
They could try to think in a joined up manner, rather than letting some tin-pot advisor go off on some technological dream trip. Congestion charging is typical of the ring-tones business model where clients are micro managed and charged one drip at a time in the hope that they won't notice that they've given up their freedoms and paid dearly for it.
Rob makes some good points.
Spunagain, that's an interesting point of view but I don't think it holds water. You are forgetting the billions of pounds lost by businesses in worktime and efficiency due to workers stuck in traffic jams for hours trying to get into cities. Also, with the development of modern communications an awful lot of office jobs could feasibly be carried out at home, and many people choose to work this way where there employers allow them this flexibility.
Ultimately I think congestion charging may be the only way to prevent total gridlock in many of our cities along with the associated stress, mechanical failures and decrease in air quality this brings. Not forgetting the likely increase in loss of life due to emergency services being unable to move around.
However, please don't assume I'm all for general road charging - its an inefficient and highly invasive way of controlling traffic movement. Scrapping all but fuel duty is by far the fairest way of charging for car use - and the only one which the tax/mot/insurance dodgers cannot escape.
Does anyone here have any workable alternative suggestions?? At least as far as London is concerned, maybe winning the Olympic bid was the kick up the backside needed for public transport regeneration in the capital - excluding commercial journeys there would then be no need not to use a bus or tube.
Spunagain, that's an interesting point of view but I don't think it holds water. You are forgetting the billions of pounds lost by businesses in worktime and efficiency due to workers stuck in traffic jams for hours trying to get into cities. Also, with the development of modern communications an awful lot of office jobs could feasibly be carried out at home, and many people choose to work this way where there employers allow them this flexibility.
Ultimately I think congestion charging may be the only way to prevent total gridlock in many of our cities along with the associated stress, mechanical failures and decrease in air quality this brings. Not forgetting the likely increase in loss of life due to emergency services being unable to move around.
However, please don't assume I'm all for general road charging - its an inefficient and highly invasive way of controlling traffic movement. Scrapping all but fuel duty is by far the fairest way of charging for car use - and the only one which the tax/mot/insurance dodgers cannot escape.
Does anyone here have any workable alternative suggestions?? At least as far as London is concerned, maybe winning the Olympic bid was the kick up the backside needed for public transport regeneration in the capital - excluding commercial journeys there would then be no need not to use a bus or tube.
TBH, having seen some of the thinking that's driving developments such as this, to blame one party or the other is a bit futile, IMHO. The last para in the story explains why.
Medium to long term predictions show, they tell us, that traffic will keep growing, but that there's little more space, or political will to build more roads, wholesale. They also see themselves as constrained by environmental concerns.
The politicos will therefore be pushed towards towards a mixture of systems that make roads more efficient (more cars per mile=ramp metering, variable speed limits and mandatory adaptive cruise control systems) and demand limiting=road charging in various forms.
This is true across Europe not just the UK -- although here we're so crowded in that we're suffering soonest.
I don't like the situation any more than anyone but I reckon that if someone comes up with an answer to these problems that are undoubtedly facing us to a greater or lesser extent at some point in the not too distant future, then they'll make a shedload of money...and a lot of people very happy.
Medium to long term predictions show, they tell us, that traffic will keep growing, but that there's little more space, or political will to build more roads, wholesale. They also see themselves as constrained by environmental concerns.
The politicos will therefore be pushed towards towards a mixture of systems that make roads more efficient (more cars per mile=ramp metering, variable speed limits and mandatory adaptive cruise control systems) and demand limiting=road charging in various forms.
This is true across Europe not just the UK -- although here we're so crowded in that we're suffering soonest.
I don't like the situation any more than anyone but I reckon that if someone comes up with an answer to these problems that are undoubtedly facing us to a greater or lesser extent at some point in the not too distant future, then they'll make a shedload of money...and a lot of people very happy.
There is a solution. If most people drove cars the size of a motorcycle or Tango when they're by themselves, the problem would be solved. It would virtually double lane capacity to the extent used and quadruple parking capacity. This way you can take the cities back from your government. You don't have to wait for it to be widespread. You can filter with a Tango right now, and because it's fully electric it's not subject to congestion taxing. Because it has twice the torque of a Viper, it's also fun to drive. It'll smoke just about any vehicle save some motorcycles, at a stoplight, and will probably record the fasted slolom speed for a car. See: www.commutercars.com
We just shipped one from Prodrive, Warwickshire, to our first customer, George Clooney on Friday.
We just shipped one from Prodrive, Warwickshire, to our first customer, George Clooney on Friday.
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