RE: Negligance Claim Thrown Out
Wednesday 30th October 2002
Negligance Claim Thrown Out
Karting crash was accident says judge
Discussion
The guy drove round a blind bend too fast to stop in the event of anything blocking his path - Good call by the Judge.
Karting is dangerous but you do have control, no one makes you drive fast do they?
You are warned before you start that you have to pay for crash damage - that alone makes me a bit cautious.
Karting is dangerous but you do have control, no one makes you drive fast do they?
You are warned before you start that you have to pay for crash damage - that alone makes me a bit cautious.
To be fair it does raise an interesting issue. I was actually there on the day this happened. On the up and over corner on the old track you could come round at speed to find a car stopped which is what happened. Yes you have to take responsibilities for your own actions but it was a dangerous corner with (as far as I can recall) no marshal on it.
For leisure karting purposes it raises an interesting dilemma. You're there to race not go for a Sunday drive. Should a hazard such as that be allowed
a) For amateur drivers just out for a laugh
b) Unmarshalled?
For leisure karting purposes it raises an interesting dilemma. You're there to race not go for a Sunday drive. Should a hazard such as that be allowed
a) For amateur drivers just out for a laugh
b) Unmarshalled?
There are more than one one track with blind bends, sounds like either the marshalling was not up to scratch or he was not taking any notice of the yellow flags.
I accept that when I go karting it is dangerous which is why I wear knee pads, rib protector, neck brace, gloves and a crash helmet along with a proper kart suit and karting boots. Sooner or later someone will try to sue another driver for causing an incident and it will get stupid.
Good call by the judge.
Paul
I accept that when I go karting it is dangerous which is why I wear knee pads, rib protector, neck brace, gloves and a crash helmet along with a proper kart suit and karting boots. Sooner or later someone will try to sue another driver for causing an incident and it will get stupid.
Good call by the judge.
Paul
Seems to be a non black and white issue.
I guess the judge was right to not find the DESIGNER liable.
But if Ted says it was unmarshalled, that seems like negligEnce by the track owners. After all, they sell you an activity where you drive round corners like that as fast as possible. I agree that we have to accept a certain element of risk ourselves, but it's not that simple. Especially as (as Ted also says!) this is designed for casual leisure drivers with no racing licence, and just a 5-min safety briefing.
Fortunately this is an unusually severe accident for go-karts - especially for an indoor track (single engines, I presume). My worry is more with track days, where untrained punters share the track at maybe 130mph - I have a nsaty feeling that some organiser will come unstuck sometime
I guess the judge was right to not find the DESIGNER liable.
But if Ted says it was unmarshalled, that seems like negligEnce by the track owners. After all, they sell you an activity where you drive round corners like that as fast as possible. I agree that we have to accept a certain element of risk ourselves, but it's not that simple. Especially as (as Ted also says!) this is designed for casual leisure drivers with no racing licence, and just a 5-min safety briefing.
Fortunately this is an unusually severe accident for go-karts - especially for an indoor track (single engines, I presume). My worry is more with track days, where untrained punters share the track at maybe 130mph - I have a nsaty feeling that some organiser will come unstuck sometime
I think if the centre was to be found guilty of negligence it would open a whole raft of actions and probably see a lot of karting centres closed within a few years.
It is dangerous and people do sign their lives away if they attend but do people really believe that they are going to have a big accident?
It is dangerous and people do sign their lives away if they attend but do people really believe that they are going to have a big accident?
Daytona at White City was one of the best indoor kart tracks ever and is sadly missed.
True there was a blind brow over the bridge, but it is always the drivers choice to take it flat - lift off if you don't want to risk someone being there. You should never rely on yellow flags being waved, an accident can happen in a second and there is no way the flags will be out in time if you are following close behind.
True there was a blind brow over the bridge, but it is always the drivers choice to take it flat - lift off if you don't want to risk someone being there. You should never rely on yellow flags being waved, an accident can happen in a second and there is no way the flags will be out in time if you are following close behind.
Assuming this chap was a 'health and safety expert' as stated... did he assess whether the track, particularly this bend/brow, dangerous?
Did he even think about it?
If he did, did he point it out to anybody at the time?
Surely you have to think for yourself a bit, especially if you have just signed away your life.
Admitedly, the organisers have a duty of care to customers and staff - but equally don't you have one to yourself and others, even if 'just' a punter?
Cheers, Phil
Did he even think about it?
If he did, did he point it out to anybody at the time?
Surely you have to think for yourself a bit, especially if you have just signed away your life.
Admitedly, the organisers have a duty of care to customers and staff - but equally don't you have one to yourself and others, even if 'just' a punter?
Cheers, Phil
filmidget said: Assuming this chap was a 'health and safety expert' as stated... did he assess whether the track, particularly this bend/brow, dangerous?
Did he even think about it?
If he did, did he point it out to anybody at the time?
A risk assessment is simply a careful way of examining how any work task or situation could cause harm to people,and then deciding whether the precautions in place are sufficient to avoid what is happening, or whether more needs to be done.
Surely if the corner was un-marshaled and blind as a 'health and safety expert' was he not negligent himself in not reporting a potential hazard
Basic definitions from Health and Safety Risk Assessments
A HAZARD is something which has the potential to cause harm.
A RISK is the probability of that harm occuring.
Formal risk assessments would have been carried out by competant people designated by the Kating Track. That does not absolve anyone, however, from carrying out their own risk assessment before commencing the activity or from reporting any RISKS or HAZARDS that they encounter during such activity.
As a 'health and safety expert' he would have known that.
Apparently the flyover & blind bend are now part of a track in Bristol. If anyone wants to break a leg, thats where to go.
Daytona did their best (& failed) to prove that there was no blind bend. Which suggested they themselves interpreted a blind corner as a potential breech of H&S, even if the judge didnt.
Even while doing that though their experts did say "well hasnt Le Mans got blind corners in it".
Unfortunately I dont think that gem was used in the court room,
Daytona did their best (& failed) to prove that there was no blind bend. Which suggested they themselves interpreted a blind corner as a potential breech of H&S, even if the judge didnt.
Even while doing that though their experts did say "well hasnt Le Mans got blind corners in it".
Unfortunately I dont think that gem was used in the court room,
[quote A risk assessment is simply a careful way of examining how any work task or situation could cause harm to people,and then deciding whether the precautions in place are sufficient to avoid what is happening, or whether more needs to be done.
Surely if the corner was un-marshaled and blind as a 'health and safety expert' was he not negligent himself in not reporting a potential hazard
Basic definitions from Health and Safety Risk Assessments
A HAZARD is something which has the potential to cause harm.
A RISK is the probability of that harm occuring.
Formal risk assessments would have been carried out by competant people designated by the Kating Track. That does not absolve anyone, however, from carrying out their own risk assessment before commencing the activity or from reporting any RISKS or HAZARDS that they encounter during such activity.
As a 'health and safety expert' he would have known that.
Just saw this....
That was the point - the track owners never did a formal risk assessment. They just didnt bother. No matter how good a health & safety expert you are, youre unlikely to figure that one out as you climb into your charriot.
>> Edited by Nick W on Wednesday 30th October 15:01
Surely if the corner was un-marshaled and blind as a 'health and safety expert' was he not negligent himself in not reporting a potential hazard
Basic definitions from Health and Safety Risk Assessments
A HAZARD is something which has the potential to cause harm.
A RISK is the probability of that harm occuring.
Formal risk assessments would have been carried out by competant people designated by the Kating Track. That does not absolve anyone, however, from carrying out their own risk assessment before commencing the activity or from reporting any RISKS or HAZARDS that they encounter during such activity.
As a 'health and safety expert' he would have known that.
Just saw this....
That was the point - the track owners never did a formal risk assessment. They just didnt bother. No matter how good a health & safety expert you are, youre unlikely to figure that one out as you climb into your charriot.
>> Edited by Nick W on Wednesday 30th October 15:01
Anyone ever heard the phrase
"MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS" I do both karting (250 Gearbox) and car racing (formula ford and TVR) and if I walk away from a track with all limbs attached i call that a pretty good day out.....
I have seen 2 people killed at Silverstone in the course of 1 day and do not wish to repeat it.
I guess what I am trying to say is people need to think more about their own personal safety and make decisions based on that, rather than drive like a loon and go to court afterwards because diddums ad an ikkle accident!
"MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS" I do both karting (250 Gearbox) and car racing (formula ford and TVR) and if I walk away from a track with all limbs attached i call that a pretty good day out.....
I have seen 2 people killed at Silverstone in the course of 1 day and do not wish to repeat it.
I guess what I am trying to say is people need to think more about their own personal safety and make decisions based on that, rather than drive like a loon and go to court afterwards because diddums ad an ikkle accident!
Nick W said:
Just saw this....
That was the point - the track owners never did a formal risk assessment. They just didnt bother. No matter how good a health & safety expert you are, youre unlikely to figure that one out as you climb into your charriot.
>> Edited by Nick W on Wednesday 30th October 15:01
WTF - They must have had a Health and Safety Policy to cover customers and their staff!
Without it where would they stand regards Public Liability and Employers Liabilty - surely the first question that their insurance company would ask in the result of a claim would be "What measures were in place to reduce the risk/likelihood of this happening"
ing morons who can't take responsibility for their own actions.
Just think, I K Brunel would have had extreme difficulty in being the front runner for 'Greatest Briton Ever' had all this over zealous H&S business been as pre-eminent in the last century as today.
Nobody would ever have done burger all for fear of damaging an eye lash or tweaking a finger nail.
El revoluzione industriale would never have transpired.
Nobody would ever have done burger all for fear of damaging an eye lash or tweaking a finger nail.
El revoluzione industriale would never have transpired.
The problem is, the injured party blamed the designer of the track NOT the officals/company running the meeting, that was the main error of his case.
Petrolted says there was no marshal covering a blind corner off a flat out stretch, then the circuit management is at fault not the designer.
Petrolted says there was no marshal covering a blind corner off a flat out stretch, then the circuit management is at fault not the designer.
The Managing Director of Daytona, the defendants, stated under oath that the accident was a one-off. He failed to disclose (despite a Court Order directive) that, in the period embracing the accident covering 17 months, the ambulance services ferried 33 bodies to the nearest hospital from accidents on the two tracks.
The local Council responsible for monitoring Daytona's health and safety compliance were not advised of these accidents, a legal H&S requirement designed to highlight a hazardous track. They were unable to provide any evidence in court of ever having performed a risk assessment in the decade of the existence of their Wood Lane track.
And to add to their impressive H&S record, knowing that the track was about to close, following the accident they changed the inflexible, thin barrier (which caused the bone fractures to the Claimant) to safer plastic piping allowing impact without injury.
Not an impressive or honest track record by Daytona!
The local Council responsible for monitoring Daytona's health and safety compliance were not advised of these accidents, a legal H&S requirement designed to highlight a hazardous track. They were unable to provide any evidence in court of ever having performed a risk assessment in the decade of the existence of their Wood Lane track.
And to add to their impressive H&S record, knowing that the track was about to close, following the accident they changed the inflexible, thin barrier (which caused the bone fractures to the Claimant) to safer plastic piping allowing impact without injury.
Not an impressive or honest track record by Daytona!
If the guy thought the bend was dangerous and he was risking his safety more that he was comfortable with then he should have stopped after his first lap.
I race Formula Fords and although I have complete confidence in the Marshalling I do not wish to test them. If I see something or someone which is likely to cause me harm I adjust my driving accordingly.
Racing is a voluntary thing people do for fun and it's very clearly stated at all racing venues, kart or car or bike, that it is dangerous (Not that it could be dangerous or may be dangerous IT IS dangerous). If you don't want any risk or danger then it's pretty obvious you should stay away and find another hobby. You can't go blaming people that it turned out to be dangerous when they pointed that out in the first place !
I race Formula Fords and although I have complete confidence in the Marshalling I do not wish to test them. If I see something or someone which is likely to cause me harm I adjust my driving accordingly.
Racing is a voluntary thing people do for fun and it's very clearly stated at all racing venues, kart or car or bike, that it is dangerous (Not that it could be dangerous or may be dangerous IT IS dangerous). If you don't want any risk or danger then it's pretty obvious you should stay away and find another hobby. You can't go blaming people that it turned out to be dangerous when they pointed that out in the first place !
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