Wednesday 9th November 2005

Courts relieved of motoring offences?

Some driving transgressions to get automatic fines

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No tax? Clamped!

The Government plans to take some motoring offences outside the court system. The upshot could be that, for example, untaxed vehicles get wheel clamped. Uncontested cases might be fined by post, while defendants who fail to turn up to magistrates courts may be fined in their absence.

The aim is to relieve magistrates' of some of their workloads. "Cases take too long to come on. The process is too complex," the Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, wrote in a White Paper that outlined the proposals. "We need to help magistrates to deliver for the law-abiding citizen."

Motoring lobby group The RAC Foundation gave a cautious welcome to the plans. However it stressed the need for safeguards to ensure that vehicles were not clamped due to bureaucratic bungling. Vehicles that were taxed but displayed no disc, which could have fallen off or have been stolen, should not be targeted. Consideration should also be given to the location of the vehicle as clamping might not be practical or safe in all cases. If the vehicle is parked dangerously, it may warrant towing away.

Executive director Edmund King said: "Most motorists will welcome the targeting of the motoring underclass who continue to drive with out tax, insurance or MOT. These one million or so motorists are more likely to be involved in accidents and hit and run incidents. Immobilising these vehicles will be a step in the right direction.

"However, safeguards must be in place to ensure that legitimate motorists are not immobilised due to bureaucratic breakdowns."

Uninsured drivers

The Foundation said it also supports further measures outlined to target uninsured motorists. It rummaged through its files to find that:

• Just over 35 per cent of male drivers aged 18-20 have driven without insurance or a licence
• 21.5 per cent of 16-17 yr old males have driven without insurance or licence
• Nearly ten per cent of 16-17-year-old females have committed the same offence
• Thirty per cent of males and 12 per cent of females aged 21 to 25 have also offended
• The Motor Insurance Bureau paid out £500 million to the victims of uninsured motorists last year. This is paid out of the premiums of honest motorists.
• About 16 per cent of uninsured drivers are convicted each year
• One in ten drivers have been involved in an accident with an uninsured driver
• Uninsured drivers are up to nine times more likely to be involved in an accident
• Uninsured drivers are more likely to be involved in hit and run collisions.

[lockup]

that article above said:

Uninsured drivers are up to nine times more likely to be involved in an accident

Well no wonder they're uninsured. Think of the quotes they'd get.

[Merefield]

lockup said:

that article above said: Uninsured drivers are up to nine times more likely to be involved in an accident Well no wonder they're uninsured. Think of the quotes they'd get.

Bizarre in a way though, you'd think they might be a bit more careful knowing they weren't covered!

[rich-uk]

Not insured, nothing to loose. Drive as badly as you want with no comeback. Don't register the car in your name and unless you kill someone you'll never get caught, even then it would be slim.

[motormonk]

Sounds pretty simple to me..

Just catch all cars that don't have tax disks! No insurance, no tax disk.

That way, the maximum someone could drive without a tax disk is a year. If you get your insurance papers and then cancel, it gets flagged in a database for next year, with an inspector showing up asking questions.

[jazzyjeff]

motormonk said:

Sounds pretty simple to me.. Just catch all cars that don't have tax disks! No insurance, no tax disk. That way, the maximum someone could drive without a tax disk is a year. If you get your insurance papers and then cancel, it gets flagged in a database for next year, with an inspector showing up asking questions.

Simple yes, but only deals with the car. The scrote then just buys(?!)/steals/borrows/blags another car (untaxed of course) and the trend continues...

[Tripps]

motormonk said:

Sounds pretty simple to me.. Just catch all cars that don't have tax disks! No insurance, no tax disk.

You've never had the fear of leaving a converible or a bike in a public place then, as tax disc theft still happens even with the newer format discs, so you could leave your car parked up legally and come back to find it clamped when someone has nicked your disc.

Otherwise though I agree totally, some sort of simple, obviously black and white system is required so its easy to spot whether a car is dodgy or not, and after a fair time (14 days to allow for holidays, human error etc.) punish the driver.

[Tripps]

Article said:

The Government plans to take some motoring offences outside the court system. The upshot could be that, for example, untaxed vehicles get wheel clamped. Uncontested cases might be fined by post, while defendants who fail to turn up to magistrates courts may be fined in their absence.

My big concern with this is, like speeding and parking, that it will become outsourced to greedy, self-interested groups who'll bend every rule in order to get fines applied and paid.

Just imagine some council tax attendent going around local car parks and roads (and even perhaps shared residential parking areas) issuing fines and clamping cars - yes some will be correctly done, but its the innocent victims where the problems lies.

[havoc]

Out of interest, if your tax-disc IS stolen, how do you get a new one? Do you have to pay again? And I assume you have to go to the Post Office, which is only open at inconvenient times...

[bunglist]

Surely, whoever gets the contract to do this job should have one of those hand held PC things that links to the DVLA and lists who has got Tax, Insurance, MOT Etc so that no errors will occur.

But if they do happen to fit a clamp to your car when you have got tax, insurance, MOT then you should be allowed to remove yourself, especially if you need your vehicle.

But if they tow it away then they bring it back at no cost to yourself, or you can sue the BDs

[havoc]

bunglist said:

Surely, whoever gets the contract to do this job should have one of those hand held PC things that links to the DVLA and lists who has got Tax, Insurance, MOT Etc so that no errors will occur. But if they do happen to fit a clamp to your car when you have got tax, insurance, MOT then you should be allowed to remove yourself, especially if you need your vehicle. But if they tow it away then they bring it back at no cost to yourself, or you can sue the BDs

They'll ask you to prove it before they release you, or alternatively pay the fine first, get released, then prove it. But what's the betting you struggle to get your money back after it's handed over?!?

It almost certainly WILL be subcontracted out, and then almost certainly WILL be abused...but the government don't care, as long as it's cheap and LOOKS like they're doing something.


One last thought - if the option is raising taxes to do things properly, how many people on here would actually be happy to stump up...say an extra 5p on Income Tax???

[Tripps]

bunglist said:

Surely, whoever gets the contract to do this job should have one of those hand held PC things that links to the DVLA and lists who has got Tax, Insurance, MOT Etc so that no errors will occur.

What the same system that police cars have connected to automatic number place recongnition (ANPR) that some traffic police have stopped using because it give so many incorrect reports...

Alas, the data held, even against the cars of law abiding folks is not good, so connecting together all the information is an absolute nightmare. While the tax disc is recorded against registration only (as far as I recall), the MOT is against your VIN and registration while insurance is against people, and in some cases like fleet cars and trade plates do not link directly back to the driver, so if anyone other than the registered keeper is driving the links become very difficult to fathom right now.

Not sure how the police roadside checks work, I guess they start against the DVLA database scanning for registration (so can be fooled by cloned plates), then if they spot an untaxed car, they also manually check for insurance and whether the driver is banned - not too difficult for a trained officer when the person who might be at fault is in front of them, but I'd hate to let those decisions be made by a warden who'd be gone by the time your car is clamped.

[Mr Whippy]

I'm happy to pay more tax to get better services.

What I don't like is paying more taxes to get more pen pushers and beaurocrats trying to make a flawed system better at huge cost.


I'll welcome this system if the operating costs are recouped from fines only and it's run by contractors, but I also think that said contractor should be liable for mistakes. Ie, wrongly clamp car, miss meeting, recoup £1000 costs for missed meeting.
Otherwise it'll just end up being like several have said, and the targets of the contractors will be higher figures and targets that are forced upon them by the government, forcing them to aim for law breakers at any cost, including legitimately taxed cars caught on some stupid technicality in law or something silly.

I don't think the system needs to be huge, employing 1000's of people and requiring huge public subsidy as it simply won't pay for itself.

Undoubtedly though, it'll be massive, with multiple layers of red tape and such, with massive waste and unreal and ineffective targets.


Perhaps a good way would be like an ANPR camera based on a handheld laptop type unit, which then records the plate, location etc, as evidence, and then the DVLA database is questioned and the laptop then recieves a yes/no response.
Then at least it's out of the contractors discretion, as the laptop does the job for them... dunno if thats possible, but would turn the operators into users rather than desicion makers.

Dave

[ubergreg]

Out of curiosity:

Do any of the uninsured drivers, who are involved in an accident, ever have to pay part or all of the expense of any of the accidents they cause (via court order)?

I know many of them (or their parents) couldn’t afford to pay all of the costs, but if they don’t, maybe they should? Maybe Bailiffs should come along and seize their TVs and HiFis and Playstations.

Something might be better than nothing. It’s very unfair that the insured lose so much (car, deductible, NCB) while the offenders get a small fine – one which is probably less than a typical deductible…

If they are in fact ordered to pay damages, please disregard this post.

[Tripps]

Mr Whippy said:

Perhaps a good way would be like an ANPR camera based on a handheld laptop type unit, which then records the plate, location etc, as evidence, and then the DVLA database is questioned and the laptop then recieves a yes/no response. Then at least it's out of the contractors discretion, as the laptop does the job for them... dunno if thats possible, but would turn the operators into users rather than desicion makers.

My understanding is that's essentially what the police have now for their road-side checks (and those in traffic cars), but the data is not of a high enough quality to use right now.

[Tripps]

ubergreg said:

Out of curiosity: Do any of the uninsured drivers, who are involved in an accident, ever have to pay part or all of the expense of any of the accidents they cause (via court order)?

I went through the paperwork last year I received from the police when one of our cars received some envy marks from the local scrotes.

My understanding the compensation bit was that even if ordered to pay, it might not be enough to cover the claimant's costs (legal and damages) and that if they couldn't pay the amount back right then, it money would come in dribs and drabs over the months and years depending upon their circumstances.

I'd always assumed the court or some entity paid the claimant back and the criminal owed them, it all goes through the court, but you have to wait for your money to be returned, or for serious damage more likely the insurance company has to wait, and you still have to stump up the excess and pay the additional premiums over the years.

Obviously they need to catch and convict the scrote before even getting to this stage though, rather than just issue a crime reference number and forget about it

[Gixer]

havoc said:

Out of interest, if your tax-disc IS stolen, how do you get a new one? Do you have to pay again? And I assume you have to go to the Post Office, which is only open at inconvenient times...

You apply for another and have to pay for administration - cant remember how much. One of my bikes had 2 taken in one summer. Now my tax disks live in the glovebox in the car and under the seat on the bike.

To me this all sounds like another step towards the auto-speeding fine system we will no doubt get once the GPS or chipped plate system starts.

[havoc]

Mr Whippy said:

Then at least it's out of the contractors discretion, as the laptop does the job for them... dunno if thats possible, but would turn the operators into users rather than desicion makers. Dave

Maybe, but you'll then get operators who say "Computer says NOOOO".

Or, more accurately: "I don't care if you've got a disk on display, the computer says you haven't got any tax, so you must have nicked that disk. Now pay up or I'll leave you clamped."

This job will attract mini-hitlers and jobsworths...and regardless of how it's set-up it'll be a nightmare. Would be nice if people would take care and pride in their work every so often...

[cross-eyed-twit]

Are you allowed to drive a car between the age of 16 and 17 ????????

If not an I think you can't then its no wonder teenagers beween these ages drive without insurance or tax !

>> Edited by cross-eyed-twit on Wednesday 9th November 20:50

[dogwatch]

The one who killed himself and four other teenagers in Hastings was only 15 and a regular customer for the local BiB apparently. Not much chance of any compo there.

[anonymous-user]

bunglist said:

Surely, whoever gets the contract to do this job should have one of those hand held PC things that links to the DVLA and lists who has got Tax, Insurance, MOT Etc so that no errors will occur.

you really want a traffic warden (or anyone other than police) to be able to look up all your details when you drive past? it would be days before the organised crims had people in place for all the details for steal to order