Call for a Motorists Revolution
Discussion
After reading yet more threads about another motorists tax, I am wondering just how much more the British motorist will sit back and take before enough is finally enough. Tolls around a 50 mile area, Gatso'd popping up everywhere, criminally high insurance prices, road-tax for shoddy roads, fuel prices taxed to death and car prices which are generally more expensive here than in the rest of Europe.
Look at what happened with grey motorcycle imports. UK registered bikes were substantially higher. So the bikers went elsewhere, and ordered from abroad. The biker community set up clear trade avenues to bypass British main dealers, and as a result, the price differences between genuine and grey have now almost matched.
Look at the French, for example. The lorry drivers are talking about blockades again, their government eventually addressed the situation when they blockaded last time around and the people sat back down again. The same could be said with the British truckers and their conveys into London over diesel prices.
Why is it always the minority communities that stand their ground? Bikers, like truckers are passionate about what they do. We here, as avid motorists and car junkies, are no different. The rest of the population, it would seem, is quite content to sit back and let these new schemes manifest.
The Americans' would never allow their fuel prices to reach these levels. There would be civil war. Why do we? We need a motorists revolution.
Look at what happened with grey motorcycle imports. UK registered bikes were substantially higher. So the bikers went elsewhere, and ordered from abroad. The biker community set up clear trade avenues to bypass British main dealers, and as a result, the price differences between genuine and grey have now almost matched.
Look at the French, for example. The lorry drivers are talking about blockades again, their government eventually addressed the situation when they blockaded last time around and the people sat back down again. The same could be said with the British truckers and their conveys into London over diesel prices.
Why is it always the minority communities that stand their ground? Bikers, like truckers are passionate about what they do. We here, as avid motorists and car junkies, are no different. The rest of the population, it would seem, is quite content to sit back and let these new schemes manifest.
The Americans' would never allow their fuel prices to reach these levels. There would be civil war. Why do we? We need a motorists revolution.
I think the problem you're up against is that most people couldn't give a hoot about fuel prices and gatsos. i know I just fill up my car and accept that the price is as it is, it certainly isn't high enough for me to take action over it. Similarly with gatsos and road speeds in general .. if there's a gatso i slow down, if there's a clear road with no apparent hazards or gatsos I'll speed up if I want to. Most of the time I'm actually quite content to drive at 30mph or slower in town, and rarely drive over 70mph on motorways anyway. Very occasionally I'll whip a customer car up to high speed if they specifically say there's a high speed problem, but do most of my road testing late at night when the roads are clearer. I believe the reason that not many people take action is that by and large we don't care enough about it, or accept that certainly on the gatso front they do appear these days to be in hazardous areas from what I see here in derbyshire. There are far more worthy causes to get worked up over I think.
:soapbox mode disabled: Hmm point noted shadowninja, or should that label be "Car-tastrophe Theory"? I posted this topic to see what reaction I got from a broad range of motor enthusiasts. I am the same relative to fuel prices, I don't add six gallons and work out the cost, I will just put forty quid in or what ever denomination I have in change. I never use plastic to pay for fuel as I don't like the possibility of paying another tax (interest) on my already top loaded running costs.
Although with hindsight my posting looks like a rant (well it was) I was just wondering what people are willing to accept before enough is enough.
Perhaps fuel at £2 per litre, insurance at £3000 per annum, and road fund license at £250. Then they reduce the amount of points before a ban to say 10, and introduce black-boxes in everycar, which transmit data via sattelite to the insurance company. I think it will happen. If it does, I will surely emigrate
I am seriously considering a porsche 911 for my next car in the spring. It will be the first thing I've had to run and fund myself for two years. At present I use the girlies TT at the weekend in the countryside, as mid week I live in central london, so don't need my own wheels there. It will come as a bit of a shock paying for fuel, running costs and insurance again. Especially as fuel and all else has risen loads in the last two or more years. Not that I've noticed yet, nicking my girlies TT when I need it, leaving her a half empty tank now and then - what a gent! I know the rip off fuel prices will really start winding me up again. After speaking to a carrera driver the other day, he confirmed my worst fears of petrol costs. 30k miles a year in this 'sensible' 911 will cost a chaffing 400 quid a month. What a bloody rip off! I can afford the running costs, but how bloody annoying is that! I tell you, taking time out of running a car makes you realise what a waste of cash it all is. And it makes me a bit of a tight wad really. This attitude doesn't sit too well with my childhood dream of a 911 turbo! I can see why people get an elise / exige to satisfy their petrol heads AND beat the system on fuel.
I think it's fair to say that most PH's agree on a lot of these issues you raise, but motorists as a overall group are a soft target for government policy. In my view this is because:
1) Motorists (with our views) as a political group are disorganised; and there is no one group which speaks for all the various owners clubs etc.
2) Motorists as a political group are APATHETIC. There are cases (like the fuel protest) when this apathy is broken, and in those cases the motorists are a powerful, powerful lobby group. In fact I'd go as far as to say the Rev'd Blair got a complete fright when 90% of public opinion was against the Gov't during THAT protest, but in all honesty, that was just us supporting the truckers, who were the only ones with the organisation, but more importantly the BALLS to do something by way of a protest.
3) The government regards the views of organisations such as the AA, RAC, SMMT, and the Road Haulage Association as "the views of motorists". These organisations (particularly the 1st two) are purely commercial organisations, and won't say a bloody thing which might hurt thier own commerical interests.
4) What groups there are (e.g. the ABD) are commonly seen in political circles as made up of a small number of petrolhead cranks; an "image" vigourously promoted by groups like T2000 and Transport for London I believe. However I think the ABD is also it's own worst enemy; a look at some of the utter rants on it's website would make most MP's run a mile...
5) Pressure groups like T2000, TfL etc have got themselves well organised and financed (by government sponsorship of one sort or another), have learned how to use publicity and have managed to engineer a position as "the voice of Britain". They are also make frequent presentations and submission to the Commons Transport Select Committee. We don't have anyone to provide a balancing view either there, or in local council committees.
In fact T2000 actually represent the "voice of the bus and train companies" - a fact which becomes immediately apparent if you take the trouble to look at the list of companies that make donations to T2000. Private donations are relatively a tiny amount of thier funding, and the membership within the public is TINY; probably fewer people than are registered for this forum in fact.
6) We (the motorists) have to find some sensible arguments to counter the following evocative arguments put forward by the others:
a) Cars kill too many people
b) We all drive too quickly all the time
c) Everyone should get used to public transport (everyone except me and John Prescott of course)
These views (when developed) must have a clear "soundbite", be waterproof, and be presented consistently in order to permeate the minds of the dumbed down Britain that our press and Government have created.
7) The tabloid press have no empathy to the normal motorist, except in exceptional circumstances (fuel protest), but more importantly the messages they are fed from Gov't, Police, T2000 etc consist largely of press releases containing "outrage", dubious statistics, and mispresentation of facts which they just trot out verbatim because to actually research and report is too much bloody hassle.
8) The Government opposition in parliament is very outnumbered, but also NO OPPOSITION on these issues. I wait in vain to see someone from the opposition going to TV to make our case, but in all honesty they are all interested in establishing the gravy train for Gov't finance that Labour are now promoting.
With all this ranged against us, I find it amazing that politicians havn't pushed the views of groups like T2000 and TfL further and faster. Perhaps our MP's understand that they are being "sold to" by interest groups, and appreciate perhaps that there is a line which shouldn't be crossed. However I now think that the bruises the Gov't sustained during the fuel protests have been forgotton and they are now pushing to see how much they can get away with (increased taxes, GATSO's, Road Charging, increased monitoring of our journeys) before enough people decide that enough is enough again.
Perhaps there will come a day, but somehow all us lowly "drones" have got to combine into an effective, financed, coherant political force. I'm afraid to say the ABD just ain't it IMHO...
John
1) Motorists (with our views) as a political group are disorganised; and there is no one group which speaks for all the various owners clubs etc.
2) Motorists as a political group are APATHETIC. There are cases (like the fuel protest) when this apathy is broken, and in those cases the motorists are a powerful, powerful lobby group. In fact I'd go as far as to say the Rev'd Blair got a complete fright when 90% of public opinion was against the Gov't during THAT protest, but in all honesty, that was just us supporting the truckers, who were the only ones with the organisation, but more importantly the BALLS to do something by way of a protest.
3) The government regards the views of organisations such as the AA, RAC, SMMT, and the Road Haulage Association as "the views of motorists". These organisations (particularly the 1st two) are purely commercial organisations, and won't say a bloody thing which might hurt thier own commerical interests.
4) What groups there are (e.g. the ABD) are commonly seen in political circles as made up of a small number of petrolhead cranks; an "image" vigourously promoted by groups like T2000 and Transport for London I believe. However I think the ABD is also it's own worst enemy; a look at some of the utter rants on it's website would make most MP's run a mile...
5) Pressure groups like T2000, TfL etc have got themselves well organised and financed (by government sponsorship of one sort or another), have learned how to use publicity and have managed to engineer a position as "the voice of Britain". They are also make frequent presentations and submission to the Commons Transport Select Committee. We don't have anyone to provide a balancing view either there, or in local council committees.
In fact T2000 actually represent the "voice of the bus and train companies" - a fact which becomes immediately apparent if you take the trouble to look at the list of companies that make donations to T2000. Private donations are relatively a tiny amount of thier funding, and the membership within the public is TINY; probably fewer people than are registered for this forum in fact.
6) We (the motorists) have to find some sensible arguments to counter the following evocative arguments put forward by the others:
a) Cars kill too many people
b) We all drive too quickly all the time
c) Everyone should get used to public transport (everyone except me and John Prescott of course)
These views (when developed) must have a clear "soundbite", be waterproof, and be presented consistently in order to permeate the minds of the dumbed down Britain that our press and Government have created.
7) The tabloid press have no empathy to the normal motorist, except in exceptional circumstances (fuel protest), but more importantly the messages they are fed from Gov't, Police, T2000 etc consist largely of press releases containing "outrage", dubious statistics, and mispresentation of facts which they just trot out verbatim because to actually research and report is too much bloody hassle.
8) The Government opposition in parliament is very outnumbered, but also NO OPPOSITION on these issues. I wait in vain to see someone from the opposition going to TV to make our case, but in all honesty they are all interested in establishing the gravy train for Gov't finance that Labour are now promoting.
With all this ranged against us, I find it amazing that politicians havn't pushed the views of groups like T2000 and TfL further and faster. Perhaps our MP's understand that they are being "sold to" by interest groups, and appreciate perhaps that there is a line which shouldn't be crossed. However I now think that the bruises the Gov't sustained during the fuel protests have been forgotton and they are now pushing to see how much they can get away with (increased taxes, GATSO's, Road Charging, increased monitoring of our journeys) before enough people decide that enough is enough again.
Perhaps there will come a day, but somehow all us lowly "drones" have got to combine into an effective, financed, coherant political force. I'm afraid to say the ABD just ain't it IMHO...
John
Well it seems that some of you certainly feel much more strongly about this than I do.
Which makes me wonder why I turned up to the ABD meeting yesterday and hardly anyone else from PH did.
There are a few points I would quite like to take up in the preceding posts, but I'll stick with the ABD issue here. They have had the reputation of being a subversive and extreme organisation - I went to listen to what they said and decide for myself. They appear to me to be coming of age.
The meeting that we attended (me, CarZee, Dazren, tsh) had (IMHO) a very professional Executive, and they did an excellent job of subduing some of the more extreme members. What they really need to make it a more credible organisation is some involvement from ordinary pragmatists who can put together the sort of articulate, considered argument that we routinely see on PH. I really think we should have been able to make up 20% of the audience. Hell, it's a day out with your mates as well.
I agree with you all to some extent - I often drive at well below the speed limit (I think they call that 'driving to the conditions') and many of the new controls don't affect me. I don't have a problem with introducing safety measures if they work, and are not a knee-jerk reaction or a cynical move to increase tax revenue under the guise of safety. Money should be spent where it will a) save lives and b) facilitate free movement of traffic in an increasingly congested system.
CarZee and I have both committed to offer services appropriate to our professional specialities. What about some of the rest of you? Even if you don't want to be an 'activist', you could assist with admin tasks, do library research, whatever. One or two hours a month might help them. The more moderates that get involved, the more representative their views will be of the common man.
Any takers?
Which makes me wonder why I turned up to the ABD meeting yesterday and hardly anyone else from PH did.
There are a few points I would quite like to take up in the preceding posts, but I'll stick with the ABD issue here. They have had the reputation of being a subversive and extreme organisation - I went to listen to what they said and decide for myself. They appear to me to be coming of age.
The meeting that we attended (me, CarZee, Dazren, tsh) had (IMHO) a very professional Executive, and they did an excellent job of subduing some of the more extreme members. What they really need to make it a more credible organisation is some involvement from ordinary pragmatists who can put together the sort of articulate, considered argument that we routinely see on PH. I really think we should have been able to make up 20% of the audience. Hell, it's a day out with your mates as well.
I agree with you all to some extent - I often drive at well below the speed limit (I think they call that 'driving to the conditions') and many of the new controls don't affect me. I don't have a problem with introducing safety measures if they work, and are not a knee-jerk reaction or a cynical move to increase tax revenue under the guise of safety. Money should be spent where it will a) save lives and b) facilitate free movement of traffic in an increasingly congested system.
CarZee and I have both committed to offer services appropriate to our professional specialities. What about some of the rest of you? Even if you don't want to be an 'activist', you could assist with admin tasks, do library research, whatever. One or two hours a month might help them. The more moderates that get involved, the more representative their views will be of the common man.
Any takers?
now I feel really bad about not going, but I will make a point of getting more involved, like rudegirl says we all talk the talk, time to walk the walk. I was wondering if there were any civil servants here as they have a large motoring community with a magazine, CSMA I think. If we could get these guys on our side it might help, I feel that joe public is now becoming as hacked off as we are. Truckers? the Hauliers Association. If we get these organisations to advertise for the ABD it would be cool
andytk said: Another thing to add to the contributions is company cars. This is a huge thing in the UK and as the driver doesn't pay for his or her petrol as the company pays
Andy
Eh? No they don't - thats only if the driver opts or is given a fuel card and accepts the massive tax liability that goes with it.
Corozin - excellent post, hit the nail on the head.
I am up for joining the ABD, so where does one apply? I also would enjoy collecting info for this cause as fortunately I have time on my hands to do so at present.
Could someone post a link on here for others to see?
Corozins' post is the way to go, and as rudegirl says more PH'ers going to the ABD groups would be a both very constructive and more social interaction.
Could someone post a link on here for others to see?
Corozins' post is the way to go, and as rudegirl says more PH'ers going to the ABD groups would be a both very constructive and more social interaction.
Just to add to RudeGirl's comments, I agree with her that they are now 'coming of age' in terms of PR effectiveness and experience in managing issues.
The ABD now use "MessagePad" - a media enquiry handling agency. This along with the fact that the quality of their press releases has improved dramatically has allowed them to establish effective channels to mainstream journalists. Last month, as a result of a converation between Nigel Humphries and a Maily Dail journo, the full front page of the Daily Mail was taken up with a story railing against the proliferation of gatsos.. there was also significant coverage in the Express and Observer.
Their media profile has changed too - where once they were quoted at the end of an article - the lunatic fringe included for the sake of balance, they are now at the heart of articles, being quoted ahead of the RAC Foundation and Slower Speeds Initiative etc..
The meeting was extremely encouraging and I'll be posting a report this week. The next 12 months will be interesting indeed.
Their website is indeed in need of some attention. Whereas their press releases have become progressively less rabid and more media friendly, the same cannot be said for the website yet. I pointed this out & hence it's one of the areas where I have volunteered to help out.
www.abd.org.uk/join to sign up - don't forget you can include your partner or other member of your household in your ABD membership for no extra money.
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 25th November 12:03
The ABD now use "MessagePad" - a media enquiry handling agency. This along with the fact that the quality of their press releases has improved dramatically has allowed them to establish effective channels to mainstream journalists. Last month, as a result of a converation between Nigel Humphries and a Maily Dail journo, the full front page of the Daily Mail was taken up with a story railing against the proliferation of gatsos.. there was also significant coverage in the Express and Observer.
Their media profile has changed too - where once they were quoted at the end of an article - the lunatic fringe included for the sake of balance, they are now at the heart of articles, being quoted ahead of the RAC Foundation and Slower Speeds Initiative etc..
The meeting was extremely encouraging and I'll be posting a report this week. The next 12 months will be interesting indeed.
Their website is indeed in need of some attention. Whereas their press releases have become progressively less rabid and more media friendly, the same cannot be said for the website yet. I pointed this out & hence it's one of the areas where I have volunteered to help out.
www.abd.org.uk/join to sign up - don't forget you can include your partner or other member of your household in your ABD membership for no extra money.
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 25th November 12:03
rude girl said: Well it seems that some of you certainly feel much more strongly about this than I do.
Which makes me wonder why I turned up to the ABD meeting yesterday and hardly anyone else from PH did.
There are a few points I would quite like to take up in the preceding posts, but I'll stick with the ABD issue here. They have had the reputation of being a subversive and extreme organisation - I went to listen to what they said and decide for myself. They appear to me to be coming of age.
The meeting that we attended (me, CarZee, Dazren, tsh) had (IMHO) a very professional Executive, and they did an excellent job of subduing some of the more extreme members. What they really need to make it a more credible organisation is some involvement from ordinary pragmatists who can put together the sort of articulate, considered argument that we routinely see on PH. I really think we should have been able to make up 20% of the audience. Hell, it's a day out with your mates as well.
I agree with you all to some extent - I often drive at well below the speed limit (I think they call that 'driving to the conditions') and many of the new controls don't affect me. I don't have a problem with introducing safety measures if they work, and are not a knee-jerk reaction or a cynical move to increase tax revenue under the guise of safety. Money should be spent where it will a) save lives and b) facilitate free movement of traffic in an increasingly congested system.
CarZee and I have both committed to offer services appropriate to our professional specialities. What about some of the rest of you? Even if you don't want to be an 'activist', you could assist with admin tasks, do library research, whatever. One or two hours a month might help them. The more moderates that get involved, the more representative their views will be of the common man.
Any takers?
Yes very nice. The ABD have never been revolutionary. Far from coming of age I suggest nothing has really changed since the very first meetings.
Succesive governments have through religion, architecture and politics succeeded in subdugation of the masses. The anti car campaign is just another manifestation of the same thing. This particular administration has been conducting expeiments in idiocy since it came to power. It is high time it had a very big shock. I for one would be far more intersted in joining a blockade protest demanding
1 Fuel tax scrapped now
2 Speed cameras banned and the factory demolished by the RAF
3 T2000 given same status as IRA AL Quiaida etc
4 financial penalties on local authorities with traffic jams
5 Livingstone tortured till he promises to be good
But then I guess I am just a lone visionary....
The other day, as I was waiting at the lights in London, I realised that of the 6 vehicles I could see around me, all were commercial...
Are we planning to tax the delivery lorries, taxis and busses of the roads? If not, the reduction in traffic levels in London will never be enough to really free the roads up.
I know that at work here, there is a large pool of potential motorists who are put off purely because of congestion. Pricing the lower paid off the roads will tend to encourage more higher paid on to it.
Are we planning to tax the delivery lorries, taxis and busses of the roads? If not, the reduction in traffic levels in London will never be enough to really free the roads up.
I know that at work here, there is a large pool of potential motorists who are put off purely because of congestion. Pricing the lower paid off the roads will tend to encourage more higher paid on to it.
Something must be done!
Fuel tax is an absolute joke - I pay £300 a month in petrol at the moment, more than I pay in income tax, utterly farcical. Instead of being taxed according to my earnings (annoying, but reasonable and fair) I am taxed according to the distance I travel to work. I am subsudusing those who earn far more than me but who work from home or less than 30 miles away from their office! >
UK PETROL AT US PRICES!
Fuel tax is an absolute joke - I pay £300 a month in petrol at the moment, more than I pay in income tax, utterly farcical. Instead of being taxed according to my earnings (annoying, but reasonable and fair) I am taxed according to the distance I travel to work. I am subsudusing those who earn far more than me but who work from home or less than 30 miles away from their office! >
UK PETROL AT US PRICES!
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