RE: Congestion - What's the Answer?
Wednesday 9th April 2003
Congestion - What's the Answer?
Is it more complex techology, information systems and road charging or should we go back to basics?
Discussion
Only slightly related but somewhat interesting/amusing nonetheless: my (would-be) father-in-law is one of the mathematician boffins that works on cars (in Detroit) and other related transport problems. Just last week he was in the UK at a generic "problem-solving" conference and was asked to lend his mind to one current UK based project. The next big thing is supposed to be "public transport on demand" - 2 or 4 seat mini-trams that can be summoned (rather like a taxi) to speed you off (on a private network of concrete rails) to your destination (or nearby - this is public transport...) at public transport costs (rather *unlike* a taxi).
Not quite up to the hire-as-you-go electric car system in France but supposedly *much* cheaper for the consumer to run. Also fully automated for those that like techno-freakery
Not quite up to the hire-as-you-go electric car system in France but supposedly *much* cheaper for the consumer to run. Also fully automated for those that like techno-freakery
concrete rails?! Where would those fit on the road? 
Something like this would be useful in rural areas, but, errr....without the rails. Something using a similar 'booking' system, with small minibuses running flexible routes between villages. Book where you want to go early in the day and the system would calculate who else to transport on your bus, then give you times etc. Of course it would help if people in villages could get Broadband....
All these technoinfo systems are good for spreading everyone around on the roads and using the road capacity, but there are so many cars on the road now that the road network must be the limiting factor. Maybe when they reach saturation point and every man/woman/kid/pet has a car then they the road system could catch up. In the meantime it's going to get worse and worse.
Something like this would be useful in rural areas, but, errr....without the rails. Something using a similar 'booking' system, with small minibuses running flexible routes between villages. Book where you want to go early in the day and the system would calculate who else to transport on your bus, then give you times etc. Of course it would help if people in villages could get Broadband....
All these technoinfo systems are good for spreading everyone around on the roads and using the road capacity, but there are so many cars on the road now that the road network must be the limiting factor. Maybe when they reach saturation point and every man/woman/kid/pet has a car then they the road system could catch up. In the meantime it's going to get worse and worse.
Seems to me the major congestion is caused when people try to travel at the same time. Obviously the same goes for all transport systems, not just the roads. If you want to build a system that can cope with these peak demands, then you are guaranteeing that your system will have an enormous amount of over capacity for 90% of the time. That is always going to be bloody expensive.
Rather than try to eek out the last few percent of available capacity at peak times with technology, it seems to me the only real solution is to try to stagger people's journey times, or simply to reduce the amount of travel that is required.
Obviously this requires a significant change in working practices. But the benefits of greater flexibility are not confined simply to unburdening the transport system. For example, there could be benefits to family life too. Working parents could stagger there workday so that at least one of them is available more of the time fo rtheir children.
Many of the businesses that operate in cities could easily adapt to this. Retail does it already. They want to be open longer hours to accomodate their customers, so they have overlapping shift patterns. Thus their staff come and go across the entire day, not just at normal commuting times. This model would also work for many of the service industries that are based in city centres; banking, law, accountancy.
The staff of the first firms to adopt this kind of flexibility gain most, as at the moment you only have to shift your travel by about an hour to gain major commuting benefits.
I used to work in a dealing room where things kicked off around 7am. Whistled staright into the centre of London each day without a problem. I now work for a fund manager and I get into the office between 9:30 or 10:30. Now I'm travelling after the rush hour, and again, I sail straight into the centre of the City.
Rather than try to eek out the last few percent of available capacity at peak times with technology, it seems to me the only real solution is to try to stagger people's journey times, or simply to reduce the amount of travel that is required.
Obviously this requires a significant change in working practices. But the benefits of greater flexibility are not confined simply to unburdening the transport system. For example, there could be benefits to family life too. Working parents could stagger there workday so that at least one of them is available more of the time fo rtheir children.
Many of the businesses that operate in cities could easily adapt to this. Retail does it already. They want to be open longer hours to accomodate their customers, so they have overlapping shift patterns. Thus their staff come and go across the entire day, not just at normal commuting times. This model would also work for many of the service industries that are based in city centres; banking, law, accountancy.
The staff of the first firms to adopt this kind of flexibility gain most, as at the moment you only have to shift your travel by about an hour to gain major commuting benefits.
I used to work in a dealing room where things kicked off around 7am. Whistled staright into the centre of London each day without a problem. I now work for a fund manager and I get into the office between 9:30 or 10:30. Now I'm travelling after the rush hour, and again, I sail straight into the centre of the City.
wish I'd had this verbal diahorea earlier today ... I was sitting next to Ken Livingstone on the tube this morning. He was rooting through a MORI report on what peopla think of Life in London and the Congestion Charge.
I couldn't think of anything constructive to say ... so I farted instead.
I couldn't think of anything constructive to say ... so I farted instead.
Where it is proposed, however, it will only be acceptable if introduced alongside road improvements, better traffic management and offset by fuel duty reductions and enhanced public transport.
I particularly like this snippet, what do you think...... it is short for will be accepted anywhere and all money taken into government coffers to pay for the NHS and growing number of immegrants etc
Simplest congestion remedy (for motorways and dual carrigeways), one which is 'green', cheap, low maintenance and low tech is a row of leylandii trees along the middle of dual carrigeways.
Think how much congestion is caused on motorways by imbeciles looking at an accident on the other carrigeway, then having an accident all of their own!
Also a dedicated rapid-response team in each area to clear accidents would help.
Think how much congestion is caused on motorways by imbeciles looking at an accident on the other carrigeway, then having an accident all of their own!
Also a dedicated rapid-response team in each area to clear accidents would help.
back to basics
look at the big picture: why, where, when
why: insufficient capacity of system or too high demand
where: areas of higher populations
when: everybody trys to travel at the same time.
some observations:
everyone wants to own a car, nobody unless forced or are stupid travels any distance by public transport.
the roads are generally empty between 10pm and 6am(granted maybe not london) motorways included.
poor motorway design, the exits are too close together allowing people to use them for short commutes.
the inside and middle lanes of motorways are generally clogged with HGVs during daylight hours forcing cars into the middle and outside lanes hence less road capacity for cars ( do the same journey at night and you'll be surprised there are hardly any HGVs about)
some ideas:
encourage the 24 hour society.
get the HGVs to travel and deliver their stuff between 10pm and 6 am (you'll be surprised how much space would be freed up)
get more freight onto the train, might be a bit difficult as there is not enough track space at the moment to cope with passenger trains as a lot of track was dug up in the 50s.
the only real answer is to spend the money generated from taxing transport, road tax and fuel and actually invest it back into transport, ie new roads and new rail routes (huge sums required) instead of trying to bankroll the national ILLNESS service and all the other pea brained schemes of the government.
look at the big picture: why, where, when
why: insufficient capacity of system or too high demand
where: areas of higher populations
when: everybody trys to travel at the same time.
some observations:
everyone wants to own a car, nobody unless forced or are stupid travels any distance by public transport.
the roads are generally empty between 10pm and 6am(granted maybe not london) motorways included.
poor motorway design, the exits are too close together allowing people to use them for short commutes.
the inside and middle lanes of motorways are generally clogged with HGVs during daylight hours forcing cars into the middle and outside lanes hence less road capacity for cars ( do the same journey at night and you'll be surprised there are hardly any HGVs about)
some ideas:
encourage the 24 hour society.
get the HGVs to travel and deliver their stuff between 10pm and 6 am (you'll be surprised how much space would be freed up)
get more freight onto the train, might be a bit difficult as there is not enough track space at the moment to cope with passenger trains as a lot of track was dug up in the 50s.
the only real answer is to spend the money generated from taxing transport, road tax and fuel and actually invest it back into transport, ie new roads and new rail routes (huge sums required) instead of trying to bankroll the national ILLNESS service and all the other pea brained schemes of the government.
encourage the 24 hour society.
get the HGVs to travel and deliver their stuff between 10pm and 6 am (you'll be surprised how much space would be freed up)
It would make a MASSIVE difference I reckon. I dont think HGV drivers are to blame for congestion though...on motorways its other people then overtaking them, in the fast lane, at whatever speed they were doing in the slow lane (usually about 57mph).
Dead easy way to do this too - make it illegal for lorries to overtake between 7 and 9:30am and 4 and 7 pm (say). In return, you raise the restricted limit for lorries, between 10pm and 5am to 70mph instead of 55.
Everyone wins.
Sounds like a lot of sense - so I can't see the government liking it. Particularly agree with the school run recommendations. I also reckon all inner-city 9-to-5 types who spend the whole day in the office should be given cut-price train passes. It's incentive, rather than disincentive, which works.
encourage the 24 hour society.
get the HGVs to travel and deliver their stuff between 10pm and 6 am (you'll be surprised how much space would be freed up)
get more freight onto the train, might be a bit difficult as there is not enough track space at the moment to cope with passenger trains as a lot of track was dug up in the 50s.
I spent a few days in Budapest recently and was amazed at how well the traffic flows there. Similar confined streets (admittedly lower numbers of cars - not to mention being a smaller city) but their solution was to ban HGVs and delivery lorries during the day and at weekends. If you think HGVs are too slow on the motorway in the UK you should see what those old Russian army trucks are like! It amazes me they can move at all - the old russian military must have mobilized at a snails pace!
If the government were REALLY interested in doing something,
they'd get rid of ALL buslanes (as they are proven to be useless),
get rid of 90% of all traffic lights and replace them with roundabouts or flyovers/underpases,
ban the school run,
make ongoing driver training compulsory (instead of a learning only to pass a test!),
ban the right hand turn and make them do, only in towns, the block square turn (i.e turn left, left and left to get right),
compulsary retesting including medical/eye testing,
anyone who fails test more than 3 times automatically excluded from ANY driving EVER,
and ban all idiotic limits on open roads,,, no 40's where there's no houses,
no 70s on MWays except where variably traffic related,
and REMOVE all SCAMERAS except where danger is PROVEN by the public, and NOT by greenslime do-gooder sandalistas with a separate agenda (e.g.Transport 2000)!
and employ departmentally free QUALIFIED traffic planners whose sole remit is to kepp traffic flowing without taxes and hindrances (and not greenslime).
BUT this'll never happen as the WANT congestion to be able to "prove" that all drivers are ecological criminals and thus be taxed to death for their right to freedom. Fcukin politicians!!!!
PS forgot one of the most important, make road repairs compulsary ONLY at NIGHT and keep the roads open during the day! works in Japan!!
And ban all shed-pullers from ALL roads except between 22°° and 06°°!!!
>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 10th April 09:33
they'd get rid of ALL buslanes (as they are proven to be useless),
get rid of 90% of all traffic lights and replace them with roundabouts or flyovers/underpases,
ban the school run,
make ongoing driver training compulsory (instead of a learning only to pass a test!),
ban the right hand turn and make them do, only in towns, the block square turn (i.e turn left, left and left to get right),
compulsary retesting including medical/eye testing,
anyone who fails test more than 3 times automatically excluded from ANY driving EVER,
and ban all idiotic limits on open roads,,, no 40's where there's no houses,
no 70s on MWays except where variably traffic related,
and REMOVE all SCAMERAS except where danger is PROVEN by the public, and NOT by greenslime do-gooder sandalistas with a separate agenda (e.g.Transport 2000)!
and employ departmentally free QUALIFIED traffic planners whose sole remit is to kepp traffic flowing without taxes and hindrances (and not greenslime).
BUT this'll never happen as the WANT congestion to be able to "prove" that all drivers are ecological criminals and thus be taxed to death for their right to freedom. Fcukin politicians!!!!
PS forgot one of the most important, make road repairs compulsary ONLY at NIGHT and keep the roads open during the day! works in Japan!!
And ban all shed-pullers from ALL roads except between 22°° and 06°°!!!
>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 10th April 09:33
atg said: wish I'd had this verbal diahorea earlier today ... I was sitting next to Ken Livingstone on the tube this morning. He was rooting through a MORI report on what peopla think of Life in London and the Congestion Charge.
I couldn't think of anything constructive to say ... so I farted instead.
Lmao! You should have asked him how the cc was doing...lmao!
jumjum said: Build more Roads.
It really would work, car ownership is that far off saturation point in the population (ie soon every one who can have a car will have one).The population is only growing very slowly and as long as we monitor immigration there shouldn't be too many future problems.
Yep. Vast great toll routes with no speed limits.
And much as it pains me to say it, the immediate retasking of Michael Palin to T2000's Antarctican office.
Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff