RE: Road charging now inevitable?
Tuesday 20th February 2007
Coming soon near youThe Government plans to introduce a voluntary road charging scheme in the teeth of public opposition that's currently centred around the petition, which expires today, on the Prime Minister's Web site (see link below).
Road charging now inevitable?
Petition's last day nudges 1.7m names
Coming soon near you
Details on the Government's plans to set up the scheme are emerging. The voluntary element would, according to the Observer newspaper, involve a reduction in motoring taxes in return for allowing satellite tracking systems to be installed in the car.
Others have accepted that it's a done deal too. According to the RAC Foundation, those who volunteer for the scheme would benefit in areas such as navigation, help with finding parking spaces, and pay-as-you go insurance.
Executive director Edmund King said: "If drivers have got a meter they'll think more about their actions, they'll cut out some journeys and they'll save themselves some money. There's nothing to lose starting with a voluntary scheme, but it would be political suicide for any government to impose it on people."
A warning was sounded by the Social Market Foundation, which calls itself "an independent think tank, exploring ideas that link the state and the market to create a more just, free and prosperous society". In spite of that, this organisation has just published a report which argues that "it is now time to move the debate forward from the why to the how by setting out a clear road map for the introduction of road user charging."
It argues that road pricing could fail unless charges are high enough to raise enough cash to improve public transport to the point where drivers feel they have a choice. It warns: "Expensive, inaccessible or unreliable public transport could leave the motorist with little choice to pay for essential trips, no matter the level of the charge."
So what do we reckon are the odds of a go-anywhere, affordable, acceptable, comfortable, clean, attractive public transport system emerging anytime soon?
Meanwhile, Tony Blair is to email everyone who signs up to the petition explaining why his Government plans to go ahead with the scheme whether the electorate wants it or not.
Welcome to 21st century Britain.
Discussion
Executive director Edmund King said: "If drivers have got a meter they'll think more about their actions, they'll cut out some journeys and they'll save themselves some money. There's nothing to lose starting with a voluntary scheme, but it would be political suicide for any government to impose it on people."
Funny think is that my "non essential journeys" involve back roads at weekends.
I would suggest that they survey the drivers on the M25 at 8:30 on a monday morning & ask how many are on an unnecessary journey / pleasure drive / just popping out for a pint of milk
Funny think is that my "non essential journeys" involve back roads at weekends.
I would suggest that they survey the drivers on the M25 at 8:30 on a monday morning & ask how many are on an unnecessary journey / pleasure drive / just popping out for a pint of milk
chickensoup said:
I would suggest that they survey the drivers on the M25 at 8:30 on a monday morning & ask how many are on an unnecessary journey / pleasure drive / just popping out for a pint of milk
Spot on.
How about we set up a petition to ask for a law that any online petition that attracts more than a set number of responses (say 100,000?) must be put to a referendum?
I drive because the whole of the UK infrastructure has been progressively moved further and further from my home.
I even have to drive to get to a railway station and then pay £22 for a 40 minute journey.
What makes me laugh is the government have sat for 10years watching local shops die and big shopping centres be built which for most can only be accessed by private transport.
They have let the public transport system get ridiculously expensive and the roads more and more clogged. Not to mention traffic flow being affected by the dreaded speed camera.
Then suddenly 10 years later they decide that doing nothing isn't an option.
Talk about slamming the gate shut after the horse has bolted.
Every government scheme involves charging the common man (and woman) more and more money and offering them no cheaper alternatives.
Absolutely ridiculous!
I even have to drive to get to a railway station and then pay £22 for a 40 minute journey.
What makes me laugh is the government have sat for 10years watching local shops die and big shopping centres be built which for most can only be accessed by private transport.
They have let the public transport system get ridiculously expensive and the roads more and more clogged. Not to mention traffic flow being affected by the dreaded speed camera.
Then suddenly 10 years later they decide that doing nothing isn't an option.
Talk about slamming the gate shut after the horse has bolted.
Every government scheme involves charging the common man (and woman) more and more money and offering them no cheaper alternatives.
Absolutely ridiculous!
They really do not listen
Time to start another petition and another and another. Use media as much as the tree huggers. Giving up the fight on being charged by the mile would start future governments to think that they can charge anything they like without opposition.
It must be made clear to those in power and those who wants to get it that road pricing is a major negative for everyone...
A67
Time to start another petition and another and another. Use media as much as the tree huggers. Giving up the fight on being charged by the mile would start future governments to think that they can charge anything they like without opposition.
It must be made clear to those in power and those who wants to get it that road pricing is a major negative for everyone...
A67
Edited by aston67 on Tuesday 20th February 10:53
WHHYYYYY are we having to PAAAYYYY again for an effective public transport system?
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
The major problem with charging in this way, is that the more successful it is the more the prices will have to go up. The government need £x billion from the motorist in tax and have been steadily increasing this year on year. IF (big IF) they changed the charging proposal so that £x billion came from time/location/distance based charging instead of fuel tax/road tax/every other motor related tax (lost count now)then when people started using their cars more in off peak / rural locations tax will descrease so prices would have to go up to compensate.
patently said:
chickensoup said:
I would suggest that they survey the drivers on the M25 at 8:30 on a monday morning & ask how many are on an unnecessary journey / pleasure drive / just popping out for a pint of milk
Spot on.
How about we set up a petition to ask for a law that any online petition that attracts more than a set number of responses (say 100,000?) must be put to a referendum?
Agree with both of those. I've heard that if a certain number of people declare a particular religion in a census, then it becomes 'recognised'? (Not sure if that's just folklore or not). Either way, I think a certain number of responses should result in a referendum....let's get another petition going!
I also agree with Aston67, let's just keep on doing this again and again and again until we're exceptionally irritating.
Agree - I drive to "local" station (bus does not exist to get me there in time for train), pay £4.40 for the "priviledge" of parking there (at risk of car being broken into as it's a VERY dimly lit car park etc), £27 to get to London. £31 per day? Gonna charge me extra to drive there too? 
Humph!
Humph!
RAC Foundation said:
According to the RAC Foundation, those who volunteer for the scheme would benefit in areas such as navigation, help with finding parking spaces, and pay-as-you go insurance.
Does anybody really think the scheme will provide such benefits?
Finding parking spaces, please give me a break.
Someone at the RAC is obviously due for a knighthood.
I dont understand this at all
In the daily rag this morning it says that Tony B.Liar is scrapping the plans because of overwhelming opposition, or something shite to that effect but now its a foregone conclusion??
The goverment can f*ck themselves and the sooner I leave, the happier I'll be
W@nkers
In the daily rag this morning it says that Tony B.Liar is scrapping the plans because of overwhelming opposition, or something shite to that effect but now its a foregone conclusion??
The goverment can f*ck themselves and the sooner I leave, the happier I'll be
W@nkers
Mr Whippy said:
WHHYYYYY are we having to PAAAYYYY again for an effective public transport system?
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
Perhaps not civil unrest, but definately protest.
I think one issue which has been missed in this whole debate is how we ensure that everybody gets a fair crack of the whip.
We already have millions of cars driving around with no road tax (or, therefore, valid insurance), not to mention the thousands of lorries (and tourists) who come in from continental Europe and Ireland who pay nothing towards the upkeep of the roads they help destroy.
If the system is intended to work with a black box installed in the vehicle how does it cope with vehicles which don't have it fitted?? What happens with "classic" vehicles which are only rarely used on the road?? How do the continental tourists/lorries etc. get charged??
When UK vehicles visit continental Europe we get stung for the toll charges along with everyone else - surely we should apply whatever charging system is devised in an equally fair way to eliminate avoidance.
I really don't have an answer, but it's not surprising that the Downing Street petition has solicited so many signatures when such a proposed scheme is so blatantly unfair.
We already have millions of cars driving around with no road tax (or, therefore, valid insurance), not to mention the thousands of lorries (and tourists) who come in from continental Europe and Ireland who pay nothing towards the upkeep of the roads they help destroy.
If the system is intended to work with a black box installed in the vehicle how does it cope with vehicles which don't have it fitted?? What happens with "classic" vehicles which are only rarely used on the road?? How do the continental tourists/lorries etc. get charged??
When UK vehicles visit continental Europe we get stung for the toll charges along with everyone else - surely we should apply whatever charging system is devised in an equally fair way to eliminate avoidance.
I really don't have an answer, but it's not surprising that the Downing Street petition has solicited so many signatures when such a proposed scheme is so blatantly unfair.
Mr Whippy said:
WHHYYYYY are we having to PAAAYYYY again for an effective public transport system?
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
We (motorists) already throw in 10x more than is spent back on us every year (road infrastructure) along with ALL the money gathered through direct taxation and other stealth taxes, THEN the fares that are collected by public transport to operate anyway!
WHAT is this government doing with all the bloody money? There should be ample to have alternatives in place already. What was that transport white paper from the late 90's all about? Almost 10 years on and we have NOTHING!
This government has failed at every step and is asking us to pay for it's mistakes, each time failing to hold itself accountable for each complete and utter failure!
Scum.
Anyone up for some civil unrest?
Dave
fvck yeah
What you got in mind??
Personally Im thinking each willing candidate from each region should stage a rolling protest through their respective towns/cities and cause havoc
If this comes off...I might even remove the entire exhaust system just to make my presence a little more irritating
My biggest fear is not strictly related to the "pay as you drive"
no
Once the whole "apparatus" is set up some uber-communist will start saying that it is unfair to charge the same price per mile to someone on benefits and to a middle class employee.
There will be a call for a "pay as you drive and AS YOU EARN" to make the system more palatable to those with lower income that are going to be clearly resentful.
So another communist genius will come out talking about revenue neutral rubbish, that those with higher income have the most polluting cars yadayadayada
then if will become 50p per mile if you earn 20,000£ per annum and 1.50£ if you earn 60,000£ per annum and so forth...
it is easy to do - they will link their system to the Inland Revenue
this is the reason everyone should be totally scared of... not state police control of where you have been, not for automatic fines on your door step
no
Once the whole "apparatus" is set up some uber-communist will start saying that it is unfair to charge the same price per mile to someone on benefits and to a middle class employee.
There will be a call for a "pay as you drive and AS YOU EARN" to make the system more palatable to those with lower income that are going to be clearly resentful.
So another communist genius will come out talking about revenue neutral rubbish, that those with higher income have the most polluting cars yadayadayada
then if will become 50p per mile if you earn 20,000£ per annum and 1.50£ if you earn 60,000£ per annum and so forth...
it is easy to do - they will link their system to the Inland Revenue
this is the reason everyone should be totally scared of... not state police control of where you have been, not for automatic fines on your door step
Mrs Big Bird said:
Agree - I drive to "local" station (bus does not exist to get me there in time for train), pay £4.40 for the "priviledge" of parking there (at risk of car being broken into as it's a VERY dimly lit car park etc), £27 to get to London. £31 per day? Gonna charge me extra to drive there too?
Humph!
Humph!
When I started work in london, I decided that it was just bloody expensive to drive the car to the station, park it up .... the annual parking charge at Basingstoke station is around £700, which is ludicrous.
Luckily, I'm working for a very enlightened employer who pays the lions share of the train costs, but if it wasn't for that, i'd probably go for a motorbike for the commute. My total journey time would be halved, and I'd probably get to work with a smile on my face.
The rail service is just way too erratic, the morning trains are an absolute nightmare to get my mountain bike onto (did have a folder, thats now dead).
The lack of investment into the transport infrastucture is pretty laughable, and before the government starts to consider any further road pricing plans, they need to get the replacement infrastructure in place and working; they've had plenty of chances, have talked plenty, but shown no signs of actually doing anything.
patently said:
chickensoup said:
I would suggest that they survey the drivers on the M25 at 8:30 on a monday morning & ask how many are on an unnecessary journey / pleasure drive / just popping out for a pint of milk
Spot on.
How about we set up a petition to ask for a law that any online petition that attracts more than a set number of responses (say 100,000?) must be put to a referendum?
I was going to set one up, but a quick search of the Number 10 site reveals it has been done.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/EPetitonsb
Get signing...
computamedic said:
When UK vehicles visit continental Europe we get stung for the toll charges along with everyone else - surely we should apply whatever charging system is devised in an equally fair way to eliminate avoidance.
Oh, the touching naievety!
What has 'fair' got to do with the Labour government? This is about appearing green. Tackling the big issues. Individual rights, as you clearly haven't noticed, are firmly in the back seat (on a booster cushion or else there will be a fine). Though strangely, governments this dictatorial have traditionally have had a very functional rail service.
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