Ban gadgets , Teach numptys to drive
Ban gadgets , Teach numptys to drive
Wednesday 14th March 2007

Electronics boost safety: campaign

Opponents argue in favour of better driving


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Pressure to build an electronic safety net into all cars from new is building.

The RAC Foundation said recently that road crashes could be reduced by more than 20 per cent, especially in wet or icy conditions, by if all cars were fitted with Electronic Stability Control (ESC).

So the FIA has initiated a Europe-wide campaign. The ‘Choose ESC!’ campaign will be launched at the Bridgestone European Testing ground near Rome on 8 May 2007. The campaign, lead by the FIA Foundation, under the patronage of European Commissioner Viviane Reding and FIA President Max Mosley, aims to raise awareness of ESC and increase the take-up of the technology.

The Rome launch will feature the release by the European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) of an EU wide ESC availability survey. The event will also include live demonstrations comparing the performance of a car with and without the system engaged.

ESC should feature high on the shopping list of priorities when choosing a new car, according to the RAC Foundation. While the Euro NCAP testing results have traditionally concentrated on highlighting to consumers the cars which offer the greatest protection in an accident – the Foundation said it wants to alert drivers to developments in technology which can help to prevent a collision.

The Foundation said that it recommends that motorists ensure their next car is fitted with a stability control system. Available from most manufacturers, these systems reduce the chances of being involved in an accident by helping drivers to maintain vehicle control. If a driver has misjudged a corner or suddenly swerves to avoid an obstacle, stability control can help avoid a skid and can turn an accident into a near miss.

Stability control evolved from other technologies such as traction control and anti-lock brakes. This technology, along with some additional sensors, feeds information to a computerised control unit. The signals are continuously monitored to determine whether or not the vehicle is losing control. If a deviation from the intended course is detected, the control unit applies a small amount of braking to whichever wheel is needed to help stabilise the course of the vehicle. Some systems also adjust the power output of the engine to help further.

This is all done by the control unit which reacts faster than even the best driver could manage. Some drivers won't know that the system has intervened.

According to the Foundation, studies have shown that cars fitted with Stability Control are less involved in certain types of accidents than those without. In Sweden, an overall reduction of 22 per cent has been detected, rising to 32 per cent in wet conditions, and a study in Japan has suggested a decrease in accident involvement of some 30 to 35 per cent. Studies in the USA and Germany have shown similar results, said the organisation.

Others however argue that such systems reduce the need for drivers to improve their driving skills, and that the ability to concentrate and react to skids should be encouraged.

Edmund King, executive director of the RAC Foundation, said: "The safest car on the road is the one which does not get involved in accidents. Driving carefully and attentively is perhaps the best way to reduce the chances of being in a crash but technology can play an important role, too. That is why advice is being extended to cover developments in technology, such as ESC, which will help protect drivers and their passengers."

Mosley said: "There is no doubt that ESC could contribute significantly to the European Union’s goal to halve the number of road traffic fatalities by 2010. But to achieve this, much more needs to be done to inform the consumer about why they must choose ESC when buying a new car."

Reding said: "The European Commission fully supports the ‘Choose ESC!’ Campaign as we want to reach the consumers with this campaign. I believe more and more drivers will make the intelligent choice and choose ESC, making the roads in Europe safer for everyone."

Author
Discussion

zebede

Original Poster:

124 posts

294 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Er learn to drive then.....

fatboy b

9,662 posts

239 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
ESC is undoubtedly good, but there are people out there that think it's there to allow them to go faster because of the extra safety that it gives. The result is that a % of those then go on to have an even faster crash when they find the limits of the ESC.

bri_the_fly

180 posts

234 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
crashing is all part of the fun isn't it?
Fit ESC to racing cars and no-one will want to go anymore because there'll be no crashes nuts
if you can't afford ESC you could always tie some old tyres to the outside of your car!

kurtiejjj

164 posts

240 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Why the hell is the FIA involved in this? In formula 1 they try to keep this kind of technology away from cars but they're promoting it for road cars?

The FIA should get some ESC fitted themselves to keep them in a straight a line, so they don't slip into territory with which they have nothing to do with.

don logan

3,881 posts

245 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
There is no arguement to safety first and ultimately a safety blanket is to the benefit of us all, but sometimes the less fear people have of the consequences of not THINKING, the less people will think about what they are doing!
Why not teach learners a bit of physics, such as, when entering a curve too tightly on an unknown road it could see them exiting that same curve on the wrong side of the road, or should they enter that same unknown curve too fast and lift off the throttle in panic could see them leaving the road in a spin!
wouldnt it be great if the people who need ESC/DSC/PSM the most could be educated to rely on them less?

negative creep

25,798 posts

250 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
More moron aids that will make people drive dangerously, in the belief that their car will get them out of any situation

mk1fan

10,840 posts

248 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Can't help but think that better improvements in safety would be made if people concentrated on their driving.

I'm all for improving passive and active safety systems for cars but the only reason they are needed is that people aren't driving properly in the first place.

What FIA have to do with it is beyond me though.

gdaybruce

763 posts

248 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
It's hard to argue with the statistics and however much we all want higher standards of driving, the reality is that most drivers are just not interested in cars beyond their utility value to get them from point A to point B.

My problem is that I've spent 30 years training myself NOT to brake and swerve at the same time and to make gentle control inputs on slippery surfaces. With ESC, however, the best technique seems to be to stand on the middle pedal while yanking the wheel violently. The electronics then sort it all out. Come an emergency, I'm not sure I'm going to find that easy to do! I think I need a disused airfield to practice.

batfink

1,032 posts

281 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
I think in some ways its a good thing if the general populous does not know its there. Otherwise people think they can drive hard and the electronics will allow them to push that much further and get away with more.

I prefer not to get in the situation in the first place. You can only really make the roads safer with a combination of driving skills to prevent the incidents then the ESP for when the shit hits the fan.

Personally I prefer a car with no aids but then I like driving, and when I make a mistake I know exactly what to blame - me
I take a great interest in how cars handle so i know what to expect when I find myself in different situations. Snow and RWD...no problem!

Oddball RS

1,757 posts

241 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
I preffer chav attrition, its like natural selection in fast forward.

Most of the better ones learn their car control in our local B&Q car park at night.

MitchT

17,089 posts

232 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Perhaps the lady who drove her car onto a railway line 'cause her sat-nav told her to could demonstrate how effective ESC will be at enabling one to drive around a 30mph bend at 60.

Mr Whippy

32,175 posts

264 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
gdaybruce said:
It's hard to argue with the statistics and however much we all want higher standards of driving, the reality is that most drivers are just not interested in cars beyond their utility value to get them from point A to point B.

My problem is that I've spent 30 years training myself NOT to brake and swerve at the same time and to make gentle control inputs on slippery surfaces. With ESC, however, the best technique seems to be to stand on the middle pedal while yanking the wheel violently. The electronics then sort it all out. Come an emergency, I'm not sure I'm going to find that easy to do! I think I need a disused airfield to practice.


Yep, counter-intuitive.

I want car to do X, but electronics might want to do Y.

I input and get unexpected output.

Dave

Rob_the_Sparky

1,000 posts

261 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
I also prefer to be in full control of my car but I think this system would be a good thing for the majority of drivers who just use it to get from A to B and don't care what is under the bonnet.

andyturner

120 posts

232 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Yep, counter-intuitive.
I want car to do X, but electronics might want to do Y.

If it works well, that's not what it should do, it'd be more like:

I want car to do X, but it seems to be doing Y.
Electronics react very fast to make the changes necessary to make the car do X.


Mr Whippy said:
I input and get unexpected output.

To most people, understeer is an unexpected input/output scenario, which ESC may well help the car to deal with (I don't know the specifics of what it's capable of), even if the driver doesn't know what to do.

crazy of cookham

740 posts

278 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Yes there is a time and place for this technology, covering I guess most drivers. I have just returned from USA having spent a day on a winter driving course on a frozen/snow test track. The electronic controls are useful but Cadence braking proved more efficient. Certainly a knowledge of the car its grip limits etc proved more important. The biggest danger was to overspeed and assume all the electronics are going to bail you out. It was also interesting to learn that some of the older systems get confused on ice and will in fact switch off at the last minute assuming the car has stopped, resulting in a crash in the last 6 feet. Just remember a car is only a tool and connected to the road by 4 x square foot patches and its the drivers brain that should do the work.

joff

9 posts

253 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
Can't help but think that better improvements in safety would be made if people concentrated on their driving.


It's difficult to concentrate on driving these days, especially when looking out for the Police whilst tucking into a half-foot Sub on the ring road.

oagent

2,130 posts

266 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
I say remove esc, airbags, impact protection, antilock breaks etc from all new cars. After the initial period of mass road death we would be left with less congestion, better drivers, less fatal accidents, and a great supply of spare parts on our road sides.

shoestring7

6,175 posts

269 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
fatboy b said:
ESC is undoubtedly good, but there are people out there that think it's there to allow them to go faster because of the extra safety that it gives. The result is that a % of those then go on to have an even faster crash when they find the limits of the ESC.


Here come the usual Luddite arguments.

While your point may be true for a minority, as most of the driving public don't even understand what ABS is there is little danger that they will reduce their safety margins because when they start the car there's a little PSM/ASC/ESP etc light.

On the same basis you'd also ban ABS, modern radial tyres, mapped efi, active suspension systems and 'Weissach' type rear suspension - 'real' drivers don't need that stuff, right?

Ask youself what systems you'd want looking after Mrs FB and the FB-ettes when they're in a car.

SS7

SS7

Brink

1,505 posts

231 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
shoestring7 said:
fatboy b said:
ESC is undoubtedly good, but there are people out there that think it's there to allow them to go faster because of the extra safety that it gives. The result is that a % of those then go on to have an even faster crash when they find the limits of the ESC.


Here come the usual Luddite arguments.

While your point may be true for a minority, as most of the driving public don't even understand what ABS is there is little danger that they will reduce their safety margins because when they start the car there's a little PSM/ASC/ESP etc light.

On the same basis you'd also ban ABS, modern radial tyres, mapped efi, active suspension systems and 'Weissach' type rear suspension - 'real' drivers don't need that stuff, right?

Ask youself what systems you'd want looking after Mrs FB and the FB-ettes when they're in a car.

SS7

SS7

Well said. Most of the above seem to be from those who don't understand what VSC/ESP is.

qube_TA

8,405 posts

268 months

Wednesday 14th March 2007
quotequote all
Don't see a real problem with this, if you buy a proper car I'm sure there will be an option to switch it off.

I only wish you could turn ABS off on more cars as it's hopeless when it's snowing.