Labour wants to nationalise JaguarLandRover
Discussion
Read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8036476.stm
I thought it very interesting but don't think the commissariat is actually interested in nationalising JLR but would really prefer it was moved to somewhere else outside the UK. What Brown and Darling seem intent on is completing the entire deindustrialisation of the UK so that all that's left are banks and housebuilders.
I thought it very interesting but don't think the commissariat is actually interested in nationalising JLR but would really prefer it was moved to somewhere else outside the UK. What Brown and Darling seem intent on is completing the entire deindustrialisation of the UK so that all that's left are banks and housebuilders.
A Scotsman said:
Read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8036476.stm
I thought it very interesting but don't think the commissariat is actually interested in nationalising JLR but would really prefer it was moved to somewhere else outside the UK. What Brown and Darling seem intent on is completing the entire deindustrialisation of the UK so that all that's left are banks and housebuilders.
they have already done that!I thought it very interesting but don't think the commissariat is actually interested in nationalising JLR but would really prefer it was moved to somewhere else outside the UK. What Brown and Darling seem intent on is completing the entire deindustrialisation of the UK so that all that's left are banks and housebuilders.
It would be shocking if they completed Thatcher's work for her.
The problem with JLR of course is that they don't make any vehicles suitable for slashing fuel consumption. There's a bizarre statment in there about the downturn preventing investment in low consumption tech, as if they were just about to develop a new low consumption range.
The problem with JLR of course is that they don't make any vehicles suitable for slashing fuel consumption. There's a bizarre statment in there about the downturn preventing investment in low consumption tech, as if they were just about to develop a new low consumption range.
The politicians as always kid themselves on as much as they kid us.
What Thatcher didn't realise was the same as what Douglas Haig didn't realise and what the Americans in Afghanistan don't realise. There is no point in achieving a tactical or even a strategic 'victory' if the resulting damage to your society is such as to destroy it or change it beyond recognition.
JLR as as advanced as any car company in the world.
ShadowNinja you sound like Michael Portillo circa 1979. It's fine to spout about letting inefficient companies go to the wall, but you need to recognise that in reality within a lot of companies there are qualities worth preserving, and to distinguish between British Leyland in the 70's and 80's and JLR now. Anyone who knows anything about cars knows that the Jaguar product then was rubbish whereas now it is the equal of any and better than most. Do you really believe that the end of the automotive or even the petrol driven world is nigh? If so you must be very naive.
Whether Britain will is one thing, but the world as a whole will rise from this depression, and it will buy cars and high quality cars. (Maybe also hydrogen or electrically powered - but JLR are as far along that route as any.) If JLR goes, the Thatcher acolyte would argue that more efficient car businesses will rise in their place. In practice, in a globalised market, the UK would be swamped by foreign built product and they would not get the chance to. The skills and the technical capacity will go and so will all the industries supported by them.
Then we will have to buy German or American cars in just the same way as we have to buy American submarines and American missiles. They love it, it keeps us nicely in their pocket.
In my lifetime I have seen Jaguar rise to a world class racing and car producing business. In 1961 the British Car Industry regarded itself with some justification as the finest in the world, and few in the UK would have argued differently. I watched it's quality and technology slump, be crippled by political strife, and be reduced to a branch of the civil service turning out joke products whose reputation still dogs Jaguar. I have then seen Jaguar slowly and painfully rebuilt to what it is today. If it goes this time it goes imho for good, because I do not think that the Americans would adopt the Jac Nasser approach again. They will insist on manufacturing in the States and exporting to the UK, even though we don't want US cars any more than we really want their planes, rifles, helicopters or subs. And we will lose our car industry, followed by our motor racing industry, followed by everything else dependent on it along with any talented management.
Why have the Germans got top quality managers like Wiedeking, Bez and Paefgen? Because these men were raised in a country which had industries and required managers. In the UK all we will need shortly is someone to change our incontinency bags and give us some more Largactyl.
What Thatcher didn't realise was the same as what Douglas Haig didn't realise and what the Americans in Afghanistan don't realise. There is no point in achieving a tactical or even a strategic 'victory' if the resulting damage to your society is such as to destroy it or change it beyond recognition.
JLR as as advanced as any car company in the world.
ShadowNinja you sound like Michael Portillo circa 1979. It's fine to spout about letting inefficient companies go to the wall, but you need to recognise that in reality within a lot of companies there are qualities worth preserving, and to distinguish between British Leyland in the 70's and 80's and JLR now. Anyone who knows anything about cars knows that the Jaguar product then was rubbish whereas now it is the equal of any and better than most. Do you really believe that the end of the automotive or even the petrol driven world is nigh? If so you must be very naive.
Whether Britain will is one thing, but the world as a whole will rise from this depression, and it will buy cars and high quality cars. (Maybe also hydrogen or electrically powered - but JLR are as far along that route as any.) If JLR goes, the Thatcher acolyte would argue that more efficient car businesses will rise in their place. In practice, in a globalised market, the UK would be swamped by foreign built product and they would not get the chance to. The skills and the technical capacity will go and so will all the industries supported by them.
Then we will have to buy German or American cars in just the same way as we have to buy American submarines and American missiles. They love it, it keeps us nicely in their pocket.
In my lifetime I have seen Jaguar rise to a world class racing and car producing business. In 1961 the British Car Industry regarded itself with some justification as the finest in the world, and few in the UK would have argued differently. I watched it's quality and technology slump, be crippled by political strife, and be reduced to a branch of the civil service turning out joke products whose reputation still dogs Jaguar. I have then seen Jaguar slowly and painfully rebuilt to what it is today. If it goes this time it goes imho for good, because I do not think that the Americans would adopt the Jac Nasser approach again. They will insist on manufacturing in the States and exporting to the UK, even though we don't want US cars any more than we really want their planes, rifles, helicopters or subs. And we will lose our car industry, followed by our motor racing industry, followed by everything else dependent on it along with any talented management.
Why have the Germans got top quality managers like Wiedeking, Bez and Paefgen? Because these men were raised in a country which had industries and required managers. In the UK all we will need shortly is someone to change our incontinency bags and give us some more Largactyl.
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 12th May 08:05
Actually ,it was the general very poor build quality on the mass production and poor middle management that gave Jaguar such a bad name. The products were brilliant.Don`t forget that the V12 XJ S2 was tested by `Motor` against a RR shadow in 1975 I think, where it was described as "the best car in the world". This was the car owned by the then chairman and chassis designer Bob Knight, who was responsible for designing the XJ chassis. The V12 was every bit as good as described .
Malcom Sayer, before he died ,designed the XJS, another ground braking design with a lower aerodynamic co-efficient than the E type.I think you forget as a ratio have well these cars have survived compared to others in the same price bracket.
Malcom Sayer, before he died ,designed the XJS, another ground braking design with a lower aerodynamic co-efficient than the E type.I think you forget as a ratio have well these cars have survived compared to others in the same price bracket.
I don't disagree with a word you say, the cars were wonderful, but model by model you could see reduction in quality, from Mark II to S-Type to 420 to XJ6 and by the mid-80's the design had stagnated as well. I have never been a lover of the XJ-S. I thought it was a confused design from day 1, but it was also the louche decadent quality of the marketing material which may have put me off. I felt it was not being designed for me or for that matter for anyone I might have regarded as worthy of admiration.
cardigankid said:
I don't disagree with a word you say, the cars were wonderful, but model by model you could see reduction in quality, from Mark II to S-Type to 420 to XJ6 and by the mid-80's the design had stagnated as well. I have never been a lover of the XJ-S. I thought it was a confused design from day 1, but it was also the louche decadent quality of the marketing material which may have put me off. I felt it was not being designed for me or for that matter for anyone I might have regarded as worthy of admiration.
Back in the day, there were retail agencies for Jaguar everywhere. This mentality kept the individual customer status you describe, very much alive. Its the same local shop/ supermarket syndrome where personal service counts for 100% of the business. We, the british public ,seek this out wherever possible.Like the Post office or the cornershop,it`s part of our culture.Then in the 70s we saw the growth of the bigger dealerships and personal service declined with the sales. We all know the build quality was bad , but I think during that time Jaguar completely lost it`s way. Supporting the ever bigger franchises has helped ruin what Lyons had built up starting pre war, I suppose that is progress.
I run a Jaguar specialist business and many clients have move away from the the big dealers for this very reason. Here we invite clients into the
workhsop, describe what we do, keep the old parts and show the clients work we have carried out , either by photos or explaination. Personal service counts, but the big Principals are too stupid to see it.
herewego said:
It would be shocking if they completed Thatcher's work for her.
The problem with JLR of course is that they don't make any vehicles suitable for slashing fuel consumption. There's a bizarre statment in there about the downturn preventing investment in low consumption tech, as if they were just about to develop a new low consumption range.
JLR have invested $800 Million in Green technologies the fruits of which are just emerging with the Freelander_e Stop Start car. The problem with JLR of course is that they don't make any vehicles suitable for slashing fuel consumption. There's a bizarre statment in there about the downturn preventing investment in low consumption tech, as if they were just about to develop a new low consumption range.
Have you not read about the predicted fuel economy figures for LRX?
Edited by skywalker11 on Friday 29th May 10:18
RW774 said:
Here we invite clients into the workshop, describe what we do, keep the old parts and show the clients work we have carried out , either by photos or explaination. Personal service counts, but the big Principals are too stupid to see it.
That is exactly why I used to drive my Boxster to Germany every year for its service, and why that particular PZ is always overflowing with immaculate older models. If the big boys did that however half of their business would disappear becasue it is based on replacing parts which don't need it.I used to detest the impersonal Americanised Big Brother attitudes of the big dealers such as Appleyard but they were so ruddy convinced they were right. That also helped put me off the XJ-S. When I look at one I associate it with a load of sharpsuited 70's d
heads spouting fashionable management theory. Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 2nd June 16:15
RW774 said:
cardigankid said:
I don't disagree with a word you say, the cars were wonderful, but model by model you could see reduction in quality, from Mark II to S-Type to 420 to XJ6 and by the mid-80's the design had stagnated as well. I have never been a lover of the XJ-S. I thought it was a confused design from day 1, but it was also the louche decadent quality of the marketing material which may have put me off. I felt it was not being designed for me or for that matter for anyone I might have regarded as worthy of admiration.
Back in the day, there were retail agencies for Jaguar everywhere. This mentality kept the individual customer status you describe, very much alive. Its the same local shop/ supermarket syndrome where personal service counts for 100% of the business. We, the british public ,seek this out wherever possible.Like the Post office or the cornershop,it`s part of our culture.Then in the 70s we saw the growth of the bigger dealerships and personal service declined with the sales. We all know the build quality was bad , but I think during that time Jaguar completely lost it`s way. Supporting the ever bigger franchises has helped ruin what Lyons had built up starting pre war, I suppose that is progress.
I run a Jaguar specialist business and many clients have move away from the the big dealers for this very reason. Here we invite clients into the
workhsop, describe what we do, keep the old parts and show the clients work we have carried out , either by photos or explaination. Personal service counts, but the big Principals are too stupid to see it.
(I am still mourning the loss of my local garage whose owner was an ex- john cooper works engineer, I never owned a mini, but never hesitated in trusting his assesment of my more modern cars; you can't fail to trust a man with half-moon specs and a naked engine on a bench after all...)
jayfish said:
I wholeheartedly applaude you for your business ethic and I hope it continues to serve you well. My fear for businesses like yours is the complication and computurization of the modern car. With an older pre-injection car it was easy to see the benefits of a specialist with a belts and braces approach to engineering; does the modern consumer continue to see the value in experience, knowledge and personal service? Or has their head been turned toward a more impersonal technological solution?
Nah, it's exactly more complex technologies that will drive customers to after sales-service oriented businesses. The diagnostic equipment and technical information everyone can buy - it's what you do with it that counts. You need people in the workshop who have the intellectual ability to look at a car as a system instead of swapping out parts and hope the problem goes away, and getting, but most of all retaining those people hinges on actually knowing what's going on on the workshop floors - something large 'glass palace' dealerships with their focus on retail marketing and 'doing the numbers' aren't too good at. You don't want to know how many expensive common rail injection pumps are being renewed because the diagnostic tester says 'common rail pressure too low'....900T-R said:
jayfish said:
I wholeheartedly applaude you for your business ethic and I hope it continues to serve you well. My fear for businesses like yours is the complication and computurization of the modern car. With an older pre-injection car it was easy to see the benefits of a specialist with a belts and braces approach to engineering; does the modern consumer continue to see the value in experience, knowledge and personal service? Or has their head been turned toward a more impersonal technological solution?
Nah, it's exactly more complex technologies that will drive customers to after sales-service oriented businesses. The diagnostic equipment and technical information everyone can buy - it's what you do with it that counts. You need people in the workshop who have the intellectual ability to look at a car as a system instead of swapping out parts and hope the problem goes away, and getting, but most of all retaining those people hinges on actually knowing what's going on on the workshop floors - something large 'glass palace' dealerships with their focus on retail marketing and 'doing the numbers' aren't too good at. You don't want to know how many expensive common rail injection pumps are being renewed because the diagnostic tester says 'common rail pressure too low'....That service needs to extend backwards beyond the new ethos. We are in essence still a corner shop country and quite frankly there is a growing hate for the new image. The customer is not stupid as many dealer principals consider them to be, a kind of meal ticket to the next management jolly or showroom re fit.
There is a growing discontent within skills base of the workshops of the dealerships which are totally bonus focussed, right up to management. Quality is diminishing.
Skilled men are being laid off in droves ( fact) and part skilled operatives are employed to carryout the work under ONE skilled foreman. These are the reasons for the problems you mention,a lack of skill a lack of dedication.
The component swapping you mention does not happen anymore as it did back in the 90s.
RW774 said:
The component swapping you mention does not happen anymore as it did back in the 90s.
You wish. I have been told some percentages of returns of very expensive components returned that were replaced with new ones by workshop technicians, first-hand, that were proven not to be faulty, and given the cost involved for the customer the numbers are more than a bit sobering. Oh Please.This would backfire on the dealer, who would not have the warranty monies paid.Sometimes this has been the only course of action, but how do you know customers were not informed first?.How many of these cases were deliberate fraud and who do you believe?,the manufacturer or the repairer? Porsche who had the same disasters with Nikilsil as Jaguar,but Porsche made a much better job of fooling you, the motoring Press. Jaguar simply did a thorough recall, costly as it was.
I do wish the public were better informed, don`t you?
I do wish the public were better informed, don`t you?
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