Compulsary winter tires?
Discussion
mmm-five said:
The tyre industry would also like to see the minimum tread depth taken up to 3mm too.
Nothing to do with making more money though is it - unless they could assure & guarantee us that tyre prices would drop by 20% to cover the loss of usefulness we'd have.
To be fair, there have been numerous independent tests carried out that have proved that tyres with a tread depth of less than 3mm can increase stopping distances by a large (and in some instances,frightening) margin and their ability to get through standing water on a road is severely decreased.Nothing to do with making more money though is it - unless they could assure & guarantee us that tyre prices would drop by 20% to cover the loss of usefulness we'd have.
Alot of car manufacturers also advise replacing tyres at 3mm due to safety implications.
I'd never run tires that low. I think there should be higher standards for all tires, some that I have driven on have been downright dangerous in most situations. Making winter tires compulsory in places with snow makes sense but it doesn't in england. Anyway, how would they define a winter tire? There are so many different tread patterns and designs.
Why don't they bring in something like an ncap rating for tires with stupidly high standards, as in nothing that is made now could get more than 6 out of 10 and then adjust the wear limits according to how good the tires are? Perhaps it could also reduce insurance premiums, would probably make people think twice..
Why don't they bring in something like an ncap rating for tires with stupidly high standards, as in nothing that is made now could get more than 6 out of 10 and then adjust the wear limits according to how good the tires are? Perhaps it could also reduce insurance premiums, would probably make people think twice..
4rephill said:
To be fair, there have been numerous independent tests carried out that have proved that tyres with a tread depth of less than 3mm can increase stopping distances by a large (and in some instances,frightening) margin and their ability to get through standing water on a road is severely decreased.
I'm not arguing that there's evidence that 3mm is better for stopping than 1.8mm in the WET braking tests that they're all stating, but what does that extra 1.2mm do for stopping distances in the dry? (although I'd doubt it'll decrease dry performance as much as the increase in wet performance)I'd assume for this to be a valid point that the decrease in the number of accidents avoided by increased wet braking performance would be somewhat offset by the increased amount of accidents due to decreased dry braking performance in that last 1.2mm.
Of course my tyres don't last very long anyway, and I try to drive appropriately for the conditions (i.e. slower, bigger gap to car in front, etc.) - but I know the great unwashed will probably still drive in the wet as they do in the dry.
Are they going to start making tyres with 10mm of tread to start with, or are they going to argue that 2mm more affects stability, handling and dry weather performance too much to be safe? What happens once the minimum is 3mm - will they then lobby for 4mm/5mm/6mm/7mm for the same reasons?
I also know that pads & disc perform worse as they wear, but you don't replace them after 1,000 miles just to get them back to their best.
We have this is some provinces in Canada. Winter tires are chenically different to summer tires and are formulated for cold temps. If you use them in warm conditions they wear right away. It would be silly to have any kind of EU wide directive. I use winter tires Nov 1 to April 16 in Canada and summer tires otherwise. All seasons are an unsatisfactory compromise.
eeclass20 said:
A Landrover related mag I read has an article regarding the tire industry lobbying the EU to make winter tire fitment compulsary.Has anyone more info or seen this anywhere else.
Winter tyres are an irrelevence in the UK aside from a few days per year when there's unexpected snow.We'd collectively be a lot better off spending £500+ per year on more driver training than a set of spare rims and tyres with questionable grip / safety benefits for the majority of our winter climatic conditions.
Plus, if the planet is warming as it's apparently doing because of us evil car drivers, we won't be needing to worry about snow and ice for much longer will we?
The fact that the tyre industry is campaigning says enough. Hopefully no numbnuts politician will decide it's another handy way to make car use less attractive and kickstart the economy a bit more into the bargain.
A tyre with a reduction of tread depth from 3mm down to 1.8mm will have reduced performance un the dry.the tyres require heat build up in the tread block to provide adhesion through friction which steadily gets worse as the tread depth gets lower. Don't listen to any gob s
te at track days running worn down tyres proclaiming them now to be "slicks"-it simply isn't how tyres work. The same goes for reduced tread depth soft compound tyres like pilot cups & r888's. They need the tread block to move to generate heat through friction to provide maximum grip. A well worn in (500 miles) set of tyres will always perform the best & steadily get worse over time/wear
te at track days running worn down tyres proclaiming them now to be "slicks"-it simply isn't how tyres work. The same goes for reduced tread depth soft compound tyres like pilot cups & r888's. They need the tread block to move to generate heat through friction to provide maximum grip. A well worn in (500 miles) set of tyres will always perform the best & steadily get worse over time/wear cragswinter said:
A tyre with a reduction of tread depth from 3mm down to 1.8mm will have reduced performance un the dry.the tyres require heat build up in the tread block to provide adhesion through friction which steadily gets worse as the tread depth gets lower. Don't listen to any gob ste at track days running worn down tyres proclaiming them now to be "slicks"-it simply isn't how tyres work. The same goes for reduced tread depth soft compound tyres like pilot cups & r888's. They need the tread block to move to generate heat through friction to provide maximum grip. A well worn in (500 miles) set of tyres will always perform the best & steadily get worse over time/wear
te at track days running worn down tyres proclaiming them now to be "slicks"-it simply isn't how tyres work. The same goes for reduced tread depth soft compound tyres like pilot cups & r888's. They need the tread block to move to generate heat through friction to provide maximum grip. A well worn in (500 miles) set of tyres will always perform the best & steadily get worse over time/wear 
Pretty much covers it.FNG said:
eeclass20 said:
A Landrover related mag I read has an article regarding the tire industry lobbying the EU to make winter tire fitment compulsary.Has anyone more info or seen this anywhere else.
Winter tyres are an irrelevence in the UK aside from a few days per year when there's unexpected snow.We'd collectively be a lot better off spending £500+ per year on more driver training than a set of spare rims and tyres with questionable grip / safety benefits for the majority of our winter climatic conditions.
Plus, if the planet is warming as it's apparently doing because of us evil car drivers, we won't be needing to worry about snow and ice for much longer will we?
The fact that the tyre industry is campaigning says enough. Hopefully no numbnuts politician will decide it's another handy way to make car use less attractive and kickstart the economy a bit more into the bargain.
I suspect the tyre industry has caused some of this by fiddling about with tyre compounds to give better grip in normal conditions, with the result that there's now more concern about reduced grip levels at low temperatures.
....and if new tyres were to have an appreciably greater tread depth than the present 8 mm or so, I expect that wouldn't be good news for their handling properties initially. They would probably feel a bit wobbly, wouldn't they?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
FNG said:
eeclass20 said:
A Landrover related mag I read has an article regarding the tire industry lobbying the EU to make winter tire fitment compulsary.Has anyone more info or seen this anywhere else.
Winter tyres are an irrelevence in the UK aside from a few days per year when there's unexpected snow.We'd collectively be a lot better off spending £500+ per year on more driver training than a set of spare rims and tyres with questionable grip / safety benefits for the majority of our winter climatic conditions.
once you've bought the spare wheels, there is NO extra cost other than fitting
the average punter would be better off on all-weather tyres though, most people don't ever push the limits of their summer tyres in the dry, but they do easily exceed them in wet/icy/cold/snowy conditions
With respect the people on this thread who are saying that winter or cold weather tyres are definitely not needed in UK have probably never driven on them and don't appreciate what a change they make, esp in cold wet and of course snow and ice.
The truth of the matter is that there are regions in UK and various user needs where such tyres are definitely a good idea, and others where they are not really needed at all.
Therefore my point is that it is stupid to make a blanket requirement that they are legally needed across the EU, in just the same way that it is a stupid statement to say that they are definitely not needed in UK.
The truth of the matter is that there are regions in UK and various user needs where such tyres are definitely a good idea, and others where they are not really needed at all.
Therefore my point is that it is stupid to make a blanket requirement that they are legally needed across the EU, in just the same way that it is a stupid statement to say that they are definitely not needed in UK.
jagracer said:
How do you know if your tyre is a winter tyre and can you use them in the summer?
The tyre will have the letters M and S in some combination on the sidewall markings, eg M&S M+S M/S MS this stands for Mud and Snow.The better ones will also have the snowflake in a mountain logo. This shows it has passed traction tests in snow conditions, it started up as a requirement in Canada but my European Michelin winters have it, as do the Nokians I'v just ordered for the Mrs' car, as the OEM ones are ditchfinders in anything wet and cool, doesn't even have to be cold.
You can use them in summer but not recommended. Their benefit is lost above 7C, and wear rate is increased at 10C and above.
Once the tread depth has worn down <4mm after a few seasons then it ceases legally to be classed as a winter tyre, and the manufacturers generally state carry on using it in spring to wear it out before the summers go on.
For a low performance / low mileage vehicle it's no big deal frankly, I see some cars running around on friction tyres all year round.
F i F said:
jagracer said:
How do you know if your tyre is a winter tyre and can you use them in the summer?
The tyre will have the letters M and S in some combination on the sidewall markings, eg M&S M+S M/S MS this stands for Mud and Snow.The better ones will also have the snowflake in a mountain logo. This shows it has passed traction tests in snow conditions, it started up as a requirement in Canada but my European Michelin winters have it, as do the Nokians I'v just ordered for the Mrs' car, as the OEM ones are ditchfinders in anything wet and cool, doesn't even have to be cold.
You can use them in summer but not recommended. Their benefit is lost above 7C, and wear rate is increased at 10C and above.
Once the tread depth has worn down <4mm after a few seasons then it ceases legally to be classed as a winter tyre, and the manufacturers generally state carry on using it in spring to wear it out before the summers go on.
For a low performance / low mileage vehicle it's no big deal frankly, I see some cars running around on friction tyres all year round.
I have no option but to use them in the summer as I can only get these tyres for my car from one manufacturer in the size I need.
FNG said:
Winter tyres are an irrelevence in the UK aside from a few days per year when there's unexpected snow.
Winter tyres arn't just for snow, but are for winter conditions that includes rain, snow, frost & ice below 5-7 degC, and so are very advisable for use in quite a lot of the UK from late Nov through to Mar.I know an increasing amount of people here in the UK that are now investing in winter tyres.
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