Cerbera (Beyond Economic Repair?)
Discussion
Transcript from a recent email re the potential purchase of a Cerbera requiring a full engine rebuild.
Engine has been removed & will be sold with the car.
The car has yet to be viewed so I'll admit there are a lot of assumptions being made here.
My question is: Is this a fair assessment of the potential costs involved?
Thanks, Rod.
THE EMAIL READS:
Thanks for the snaps & the heads up, it's a lovely looking car for sure.
The thing is, as much as I want it, the way I see it a Cerbera like this is a potential money pit, a very deep and dark money pit!!!!
Lets add up what it would really cost to get this car sorted, make sure you are sitting down this may get frighting.
All of my costs are based on outsourcing the work to respected specialists as I neither have the time or the space to complete the work myself.
First of all you have really got to assume if the outriggers haven't been done already they will need doing in the next two years or so (if not immediately).
If the engine is out of the car awaiting a rebuild it makes sense to sort any chassis corrosion out while it's in this state.
So I am gong to start my list of refurbishment costs with a £2,000 chassis restoration bill.
Now lets look at that epic but very sick engine.
Assuming the fundamentals are recoverable (block, crank, con rods) a standard engine rebuild for an AJP V8 will be in the region of £6,000 plus fitting, so more like £7,000 by the time the engine is in the car & running correctly.
The thing is when these engines fail they typically take out something expensive.
For instance if the block is cracked or otherwise damaged it's scrap, a decent used block would need to be sourced (if you can find one) & that could be £2,000 just for a decent bare block.
If the crank has snapped (common on the earlier AJP V8 variants) this will add another £1,800 to the rebuild costs.
If a con rod is bent this will easily add £250 each, and remember there are eight of them, ouch!
So you see the costs can rack up very quickly, if your not careful your £6,000 engine rebuild can turn into a £10,000 engine rebuild in an instant... & probably will!
But lets be optimistic here & assume we get lucky with the engine, that's £7,000 for the rebuild & fitting, plus £2000 for the chassis restoration, plus £1,000 for bits and bobs you find along the way like brake pipes, diff bush, coolant hoses ect ect (it all adds up)
So we are up to £10,000 already and that's really the very best case scenario assuming most of the expensive bits of the engine are recoverable (& in reality they probably won't be).
If it needs suspension bushes, new dampers, a brake overhaul ect you can easily add another £3,000 to the bill, again it would be crazy not to do this work with the body off & engine out.
All in all, with a huge amount of luck on my side, I would budget £13,000 to put it back on the road in a decent reliable state, but to be honest you've got to go into a project like this prepared for the unexpected.
Lets say I put £13,000 into it, had gone through all the hassle of putting it back on the road & spent 8 months of my life in stress doing so, I would definitely want to see my money back when I eventually came sell it.
So I have to ask myself (if I needed to) how much I could sell it for when the work was all completed?
Well, I would say in it's fully sorted state a Cerbera like this would realistically sell for £15,000.
So how much is this lovely Cerbera worth to me as it stands? the truth is I would be looking to pay no more than £2,000 for it in it's current condition.
I know this sounds mad & I very much doubt your mate will take £2,000 for it, but honestly in it's current state that's probably all it's worth.
The thing is I have no doubt your mate has already done some calculations on getting it back on the road, have you asked yourself why he is selling it as is & not getting it sorted himself?
That's an easy question for me to answer, the financials simply don't stack up.
Such a shame really, I would love a Cerbera as you know, but I cant allow a toy to bankrupt me.
It sounds awful but the reality is the car is probably worth a lot more if he breaks it (strips it & sells the parts).
However in my opinion he best thing to do with it would lock it away in a garage, spend the next 10 years collecting the parts while they are still available, then rebuild it when the value of Cerberas have significantly increased.
And they will increase, my guess is in 10 years time this car will be worth £40,000 in a proper sorted state, & that's when the financials start to make sense.
But for now I will sadly have to pass.
Brian.
Engine has been removed & will be sold with the car.
The car has yet to be viewed so I'll admit there are a lot of assumptions being made here.
My question is: Is this a fair assessment of the potential costs involved?
Thanks, Rod.
THE EMAIL READS:
Thanks for the snaps & the heads up, it's a lovely looking car for sure.
The thing is, as much as I want it, the way I see it a Cerbera like this is a potential money pit, a very deep and dark money pit!!!!
Lets add up what it would really cost to get this car sorted, make sure you are sitting down this may get frighting.
All of my costs are based on outsourcing the work to respected specialists as I neither have the time or the space to complete the work myself.
First of all you have really got to assume if the outriggers haven't been done already they will need doing in the next two years or so (if not immediately).
If the engine is out of the car awaiting a rebuild it makes sense to sort any chassis corrosion out while it's in this state.
So I am gong to start my list of refurbishment costs with a £2,000 chassis restoration bill.
Now lets look at that epic but very sick engine.
Assuming the fundamentals are recoverable (block, crank, con rods) a standard engine rebuild for an AJP V8 will be in the region of £6,000 plus fitting, so more like £7,000 by the time the engine is in the car & running correctly.
The thing is when these engines fail they typically take out something expensive.
For instance if the block is cracked or otherwise damaged it's scrap, a decent used block would need to be sourced (if you can find one) & that could be £2,000 just for a decent bare block.
If the crank has snapped (common on the earlier AJP V8 variants) this will add another £1,800 to the rebuild costs.
If a con rod is bent this will easily add £250 each, and remember there are eight of them, ouch!
So you see the costs can rack up very quickly, if your not careful your £6,000 engine rebuild can turn into a £10,000 engine rebuild in an instant... & probably will!
But lets be optimistic here & assume we get lucky with the engine, that's £7,000 for the rebuild & fitting, plus £2000 for the chassis restoration, plus £1,000 for bits and bobs you find along the way like brake pipes, diff bush, coolant hoses ect ect (it all adds up)
So we are up to £10,000 already and that's really the very best case scenario assuming most of the expensive bits of the engine are recoverable (& in reality they probably won't be).
If it needs suspension bushes, new dampers, a brake overhaul ect you can easily add another £3,000 to the bill, again it would be crazy not to do this work with the body off & engine out.
All in all, with a huge amount of luck on my side, I would budget £13,000 to put it back on the road in a decent reliable state, but to be honest you've got to go into a project like this prepared for the unexpected.
Lets say I put £13,000 into it, had gone through all the hassle of putting it back on the road & spent 8 months of my life in stress doing so, I would definitely want to see my money back when I eventually came sell it.
So I have to ask myself (if I needed to) how much I could sell it for when the work was all completed?
Well, I would say in it's fully sorted state a Cerbera like this would realistically sell for £15,000.
So how much is this lovely Cerbera worth to me as it stands? the truth is I would be looking to pay no more than £2,000 for it in it's current condition.
I know this sounds mad & I very much doubt your mate will take £2,000 for it, but honestly in it's current state that's probably all it's worth.
The thing is I have no doubt your mate has already done some calculations on getting it back on the road, have you asked yourself why he is selling it as is & not getting it sorted himself?
That's an easy question for me to answer, the financials simply don't stack up.
Such a shame really, I would love a Cerbera as you know, but I cant allow a toy to bankrupt me.
It sounds awful but the reality is the car is probably worth a lot more if he breaks it (strips it & sells the parts).
However in my opinion he best thing to do with it would lock it away in a garage, spend the next 10 years collecting the parts while they are still available, then rebuild it when the value of Cerberas have significantly increased.
And they will increase, my guess is in 10 years time this car will be worth £40,000 in a proper sorted state, & that's when the financials start to make sense.
But for now I will sadly have to pass.
Brian.
Might make more sense to get a second hand engine, but then there is still the potential of it not being 100%. LS conversion?
With the engine out, good idea to tackle the chassis before hand. All the costs listed are for someone else to do the work.
If your handy with a spanner, then a lots of prep work can be done before getting the professionals in, and save money that way
With the engine out, good idea to tackle the chassis before hand. All the costs listed are for someone else to do the work.
If your handy with a spanner, then a lots of prep work can be done before getting the professionals in, and save money that way
I think the buyer is being very sensible. Everything he said makes sense. Yes, you may be able to cut corners here and there but the saving will still not be massive if you pay someone to do the work.
If you do the work yourself then you want to see a "profit" for your labour in the form of getting the car for less than the value when complete (though this seldom happens due to those little additional items we all like).
BTW I am not connected in any way with the buyer.
Paul
If you do the work yourself then you want to see a "profit" for your labour in the form of getting the car for less than the value when complete (though this seldom happens due to those little additional items we all like).
BTW I am not connected in any way with the buyer.
Paul
If you have to use specialists to carry out all the work then buying a car in this state isnt for you. First of all not all cerbs need outriggers, and if it does you are looking at the upper end of the scale £1500, as for the engine , you can buy a second hand motor anywhere from £2000 upwards. For the right person who enjoys getting involved and is prepared to do a bit themselves this could be a good buy... If you don't have the time or passion to do it buy a car already in top condition
On the other hand I did a full body off chassis restoration, engine swap, fitted new bushes / bolts and suspension all round for not a lot more than £7.5k and a couple of weeks work - it can be done! Chassis say £1.5k, engine £1.7k SH for a good one, suspension /bushes £1.1k, labour (not mine!) £2.5k and another £1K elsewhere such as silicon / stainlesss hoses & pipes, braided brake lines, Raceproved slave etc, gearbox service etc. Obviously some of this is upgrade work and on the plus side I have a spare engine to sell.
The car hasn't missed a beat for the last year since and just passed it's MOT no probs.
Remind me not to add this up again - I'd about forgotten the cost!
The car hasn't missed a beat for the last year since and just passed it's MOT no probs.
Remind me not to add this up again - I'd about forgotten the cost!
As a Chimaera owner that yearns to own a Cerbera one day I'm following this with interest.
What's clear is that returning a sick Cerbera to the road is a very different financial proposition to renovating a Chimaera of Griffith.
The buyer seems to be very rational and pragmatic in his appraisal of the project.
However you have to ask if the buyer's rational and pragmatic thinking is really a relevant approach to TVR ownership?
Hoping to break even on a project like this is at best optimistic, but it does make you wonder how many Cerberas have been mothballed or sold very cheaply because the owner couldn't come up with the £6 - £7k for an engine rebuild?
It seems the seller has the difficult choice between either finding a buyer who is prepared to spend more on the car than it will potentially be worth (which could take a long time), or cutting his losses & selling it off for a very low sum.
I would say the average potential Cerbera buyer would be better off looking for a functioning well maintained car instead.
That's what I hope to do when the time comes to get myself a Cerbera.
Then again - one Cerb with a dead AJP + £10 - £15k spent at Topcats on a drive in drive out LS conversion = very tempting indeed
So chaps, exactly how much is a Cerbera with a dead AJP worth on the open market?
What's clear is that returning a sick Cerbera to the road is a very different financial proposition to renovating a Chimaera of Griffith.
The buyer seems to be very rational and pragmatic in his appraisal of the project.
However you have to ask if the buyer's rational and pragmatic thinking is really a relevant approach to TVR ownership?
Hoping to break even on a project like this is at best optimistic, but it does make you wonder how many Cerberas have been mothballed or sold very cheaply because the owner couldn't come up with the £6 - £7k for an engine rebuild?
It seems the seller has the difficult choice between either finding a buyer who is prepared to spend more on the car than it will potentially be worth (which could take a long time), or cutting his losses & selling it off for a very low sum.
I would say the average potential Cerbera buyer would be better off looking for a functioning well maintained car instead.
That's what I hope to do when the time comes to get myself a Cerbera.
Then again - one Cerb with a dead AJP + £10 - £15k spent at Topcats on a drive in drive out LS conversion = very tempting indeed
So chaps, exactly how much is a Cerbera with a dead AJP worth on the open market?
Tafford said:
On the other hand I did a full body off chassis restoration, engine swap, fitted new bushes / bolts and suspension all round for not a lot more than £7.5k and a couple of weeks work - it can be done! Chassis say £1.5k, engine £1.7k SH for a good one, suspension /bushes £1.1k, labour (not mine!) £2.5k and another £1K elsewhere such as silicon / stainlesss hoses & pipes, braided brake lines, Raceproved slave etc, gearbox service etc. Obviously some of this is upgrade work and on the plus side I have a spare engine to sell.
The car hasn't missed a beat for the last year since and just passed it's MOT no probs.
Remind me not to add this up again - I'd about forgotten the cost!
The car hasn't missed a beat for the last year since and just passed it's MOT no probs.
Remind me not to add this up again - I'd about forgotten the cost!
This is encouraging Tafford, nice work
How much of the spannering did you do yourself?
£7.5k plus the cost of the car right?
So what's the market value of a Cerb with a dead AJP V8?
Yes, £7.5K plus cost of car. I probably did about 60% of spannering and all the running round getting odd bits / bolts etc. I'm also lucky in that my cousin restores classic cars so I used the barn he works in and he provided the rest of the labour at a reasonable rate.
Chassis condition is prehaps more important than a dead engine. AJP's seem to be around for sale £1.5-3K every now and then. Admittedly it's a bit a gamble buying a SH engine and not doing anything to it but say you bought one from a written off crashed car that had stayed on it's wheels I wouldn't be too worried - presumably it was running OK when it was crashed!
Chassis condition is prehaps more important than a dead engine. AJP's seem to be around for sale £1.5-3K every now and then. Admittedly it's a bit a gamble buying a SH engine and not doing anything to it but say you bought one from a written off crashed car that had stayed on it's wheels I wouldn't be too worried - presumably it was running OK when it was crashed!
Can you be economic with any cerbera
.surely any true car nut knows you wont recoup your £sssssss spend,even if you do it yourself.I bought my car for what i thought was a good fair price,and with the work i have done so far,and what im about to do will push my costs near 19 grand.....and she will be far from done....98 car i know she would not sell for this but i will still put cash into her cos i love it,,,Economic no,,,,,,but worth every penny
.surely any true car nut knows you wont recoup your £sssssss spend,even if you do it yourself.I bought my car for what i thought was a good fair price,and with the work i have done so far,and what im about to do will push my costs near 19 grand.....and she will be far from done....98 car i know she would not sell for this but i will still put cash into her cos i love it,,,Economic no,,,,,,but worth every pennyChimpandtonic said:
Then again - one Cerb with a dead AJP + £10 - £15k spent at Topcats on a drive in drive out LS conversion = very tempting indeed
Apparently the mothership is doing it for £10K + VAT. 
If that offer stands for any length of time, I might be tempted at some point to throw caution in the wind, get myself a Speed 6 Cerb with a blown engine, send it to Coventry to make the ultimate TVR old-ma... er, gentleman's carriage, and opt-out of the company car scheme.
Looking at the original question I would say that the maths is right but wrong. It all depends on the approach that is taken. The total cost depends on how you go about it and where you draw the line. It could be back on the road for £3K and a weeks worth of graft or you could take longer and spend a lot more! Personally I would like to get a (slightly) broken cerb for say sub £5K and have a little project. Although the Power LS option would be interesting. Having their brand behind the conversion would be good as I have seen one that was pretty bad.
Over 3 years ago I found myself with my Cerb having a 'sick' engine (not in a good way). The prognosis was that it would need a rebuild to some degree. Could do a part rebuild which would be cheaper but until it was underway I could find that it really needed a full rebuild which would be the best thing for it. As has been posted the cost of that could be 7-8k.
So I was in the same situation. I love my car but if I had to sell it as it was it wouldn't be worth much at all. I considered getting what I could for it and using that money to buy a 944 or similar instead, but, I really like the Cerbera.
I have enough money to get by but I'm certainly not rich so it was a big decision. I was the initiator who asked if Topcats could put an LS engine in and Topcats said yes to the project and sorted what they proposed whilst keeping me involved in what I would like and wanted to afford. I could blah blah more but only if anyone asks.
To sum up, it's a big/huge bill (well, for me with and my bank account, but it was going to cost me whichever way I went) when you're not ready for it but the three years+ of enjoyment I have had so far has made up for it. I'm still driving my Cerb and it now has masses of power - even if it is a Yank motor. After all an AC Ace is nice but put the name Shelby Cobra with it and there you go.
The other point is the future worth of the car when it should become a desirable classic of worth. Well, I'm just keeping hold of the old engine from the car so, if it was needed, the car could be returned to how it was.
That's just what I did!
So I was in the same situation. I love my car but if I had to sell it as it was it wouldn't be worth much at all. I considered getting what I could for it and using that money to buy a 944 or similar instead, but, I really like the Cerbera.
I have enough money to get by but I'm certainly not rich so it was a big decision. I was the initiator who asked if Topcats could put an LS engine in and Topcats said yes to the project and sorted what they proposed whilst keeping me involved in what I would like and wanted to afford. I could blah blah more but only if anyone asks.
To sum up, it's a big/huge bill (well, for me with and my bank account, but it was going to cost me whichever way I went) when you're not ready for it but the three years+ of enjoyment I have had so far has made up for it. I'm still driving my Cerb and it now has masses of power - even if it is a Yank motor. After all an AC Ace is nice but put the name Shelby Cobra with it and there you go.
The other point is the future worth of the car when it should become a desirable classic of worth. Well, I'm just keeping hold of the old engine from the car so, if it was needed, the car could be returned to how it was.
That's just what I did!
Edited by ajp70 on Wednesday 1st February 20:00
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