LPG conversion thoughts ???
Discussion
It could easily be done & with a single point system but then why would you ?
The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
gerradiuk said:
It could easily be done & with a single point system but then why would you ?
The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
That's exactly what I was trying to say. The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
gerradiuk said:
It could easily be done & with a single point system but then why would you ?
The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
It could be done a lot lot better than that, people need to update themselves on LPG or more specifically the delivery systems that have now completely caught up with petrol injection.The whole idea of a TVR is powerful as possible engine in a very light body, the Lpg tank in the boot would unbalance the car & ruin its handling.
Also as its older engine you could stand a very good chance of Valve recession due to dry fuel (Lpg), although the octane rating of LPg is higher (103)its asctual calorific vale is less thus giving you quite a substantial power loss say 20%+, which again defeats the object of owning a TVR.
Last point, sorry if it sounds patronising or unfair but if yoou have to worry about fuel costs then a Cerbera if definetly not for you, the fuel cost are not the major issue its the regular maintenance thats needed.
Once you've done some proper research and thrown away your outdated misconceptions you'll start to see the OP's question isn't so stupid after all.
The people to look to, to see what's possible are the Australians, the Ozzy's are well into LPG and it's not uncommon to see twin turbo small block Chevy engined Holdens turning in sub 10 second quarters on LPG.
One of the big benefits is it's resistance to knock, LPG is actually 110Ron not 103, yes it does have a lower calorific value by volume but these days there is absolutely no reason why you should lose one single horse power.
In fact due to it's amazing resistance to detonation you should be able to pull more power from a forced induction engine on LPG than would be possible on petrol, & this has been proven time & time again.
Look at what happened when the AON Ford Focus British Touring car team went to LPG, they wiped the slate with all the petrol race cars and the the officials went from laughing at it to making up rules to slow it down.
The only outcome of the lower calorific value being a 15% reduction in fuel consumption when compared with petrol, which is more than compensated for when you consider the stuff is only £3.27 a gallon compared with £6.36 a gallon for the wet 97Ron stuff.
The key to getting LPG to work is all in the ignition & injection systems.
The common method is to emulate the petrol injector durations and twist them for LPG within a piggy back ECU.
But there is a newer smarter way, an ECU that you map uniquely & independently for each fuel type, this is what I have in my 4.0 litre Chimaera & it works superbly.
I'm getting 260hp on the rollers when running petrol, & 261hp running LPG.
And it does the cost equivalent of 40 mpg all day long.
I challenge you to do some research & throw away your outdated LPG preconceptions, and start saving.
My Chim remains 100% TVR to the core, the roof goes in the boot still and there's space left for plenty of luggage.
Weight has gone up no more than an absolute maximum of 40kg when both tanks are absolutely full, and looking at the car no body would ever know it's on LPG.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What's not to like?
wiggycerb said:
Well that opened a hornets nest 
It was only a "thought" and believe me my cerb which I've had for 12 years doesn't want for anything, hence why I run a shed currently a 330d. But as pointed out LPG has come along way and shall be my next port of call !!
To stop any miss understanding, i meant next port of call for the daily driver not Cerb It was only a "thought" and believe me my cerb which I've had for 12 years doesn't want for anything, hence why I run a shed currently a 330d. But as pointed out LPG has come along way and shall be my next port of call !!
ChimpOnGas said:
It could be done a lot lot better than that, people need to update themselves on LPG or more specifically the delivery systems that have now completely caught up with petrol injection.
Once you've done some proper research and thrown away your outdated misconceptions you'll start to see the OP's question isn't so stupid after all.
The people to look to, to see what's possible are the Australians, the Ozzy's are well into LPG and it's not uncommon to see twin turbo small block Chevy engined Holdens turning in sub 10 second quarters on LPG.
One of the big benefits is it's resistance to knock, LPG is actually 110Ron not 103, yes it does have a lower calorific value by volume but these days there is absolutely no reason why you should lose one single horse power.
In fact due to it's amazing resistance to detonation you should be able to pull more power from a forced induction engine on LPG than would be possible on petrol, & this has been proven time & time again.
Look at what happened when the AON Ford Focus British Touring car team went to LPG, they wiped the slate with all the petrol race cars and the the officials went from laughing at it to making up rules to slow it down.
The only outcome of the lower calorific value being a 15% reduction in fuel consumption when compared with petrol, which is more than compensated for when you consider the stuff is only £3.27 a gallon compared with £6.36 a gallon for the wet 97Ron stuff.
The key to getting LPG to work is all in the ignition & injection systems.
The common method is to emulate the petrol injector durations and twist them for LPG within a piggy back ECU.
But there is a newer smarter way, an ECU that you map uniquely & independently for each fuel type, this is what I have in my 4.0 litre Chimaera & it works superbly.
I'm getting 260hp on the rollers when running petrol, & 261hp running LPG.
And it does the cost equivalent of 40 mpg all day long.
I challenge you to do some research & throw away your outdated LPG preconceptions, and start saving.
My Chim remains 100% TVR to the core, the roof goes in the boot still and there's space left for plenty of luggage.
Weight has gone up no more than an absolute maximum of 40kg when both tanks are absolutely full, and looking at the car no body would ever know it's on LPG.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What's not to like?
Dave I have been through the Lpg for performance cars since 1999 up to 2010, I was/am the 1st person in UK to have a Maserati converted to LPG Once you've done some proper research and thrown away your outdated misconceptions you'll start to see the OP's question isn't so stupid after all.
The people to look to, to see what's possible are the Australians, the Ozzy's are well into LPG and it's not uncommon to see twin turbo small block Chevy engined Holdens turning in sub 10 second quarters on LPG.
One of the big benefits is it's resistance to knock, LPG is actually 110Ron not 103, yes it does have a lower calorific value by volume but these days there is absolutely no reason why you should lose one single horse power.
In fact due to it's amazing resistance to detonation you should be able to pull more power from a forced induction engine on LPG than would be possible on petrol, & this has been proven time & time again.
Look at what happened when the AON Ford Focus British Touring car team went to LPG, they wiped the slate with all the petrol race cars and the the officials went from laughing at it to making up rules to slow it down.
The only outcome of the lower calorific value being a 15% reduction in fuel consumption when compared with petrol, which is more than compensated for when you consider the stuff is only £3.27 a gallon compared with £6.36 a gallon for the wet 97Ron stuff.
The key to getting LPG to work is all in the ignition & injection systems.
The common method is to emulate the petrol injector durations and twist them for LPG within a piggy back ECU.
But there is a newer smarter way, an ECU that you map uniquely & independently for each fuel type, this is what I have in my 4.0 litre Chimaera & it works superbly.
I'm getting 260hp on the rollers when running petrol, & 261hp running LPG.
And it does the cost equivalent of 40 mpg all day long.
I challenge you to do some research & throw away your outdated LPG preconceptions, and start saving.
My Chim remains 100% TVR to the core, the roof goes in the boot still and there's space left for plenty of luggage.
Weight has gone up no more than an absolute maximum of 40kg when both tanks are absolutely full, and looking at the car no body would ever know it's on LPG.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What's not to like?
http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Maserati.html
Before that a twin Turbo Jaguar Chasseur, A 540i also I converted a alfa JTD diesel as "They" said it could not safely be done ... I did it very fast job done!
I know all about LPG Injection systems or should I say pulse switch systems as they are hardly "injectors" are they, the reason I said a single point as this would work very easily & can be fitted by a comparative novice, the tuning can be a bit more difficult compared to the "Multi-point"systems but are a lot cheaper to fix as no computer or clogged switches (inj) due to heavy ends because of crap UK mix! the europe mix is a better mix than here less problems.
The main reason though is the weight distribution just ruins the handling, unless you want to spend quite a bit on heaver duty suspension bushes, better sb hocks , A/roll bars & a good Geo set up to get it back to the way it is meant to handle, which costs a bomb which defeats the whole object, ask how I know ...This cost me a small fortune to get it handling correctly
Hope will help the OP make a decision like this may do
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=48
I did the take & pass the installer's course at Worldwide Autoworld to fit Romano N & another to fit BRC systems after some bodge jobs on some of my cars namely 1st one mentioned.
Edited by gerradiuk on Saturday 27th April 21:49
wiggycerb said:
wiggycerb said:
Well that opened a hornets nest
It was only a "thought" and believe me my cerb which I've had for 12 years doesn't want for anything, hence why I run a shed currently a 330d. But as pointed out LPG has come along way and shall be my next port of call !!
To stop any miss understanding, i meant next port of call for the daily driver not Cerb It was only a "thought" and believe me my cerb which I've had for 12 years doesn't want for anything, hence why I run a shed currently a 330d. But as pointed out LPG has come along way and shall be my next port of call !!
t. Wiggy ,why not have some real fun & convert the 330D!
My JTD would leave 330d drivers dazed, confused & far behind me! The torque was absolutely atounding But & a big BUT it cost me 2 sports clutches ,two Dual mass flywheels also the planet gear collapsed due to the torque it put out, did not bode well though...
My JTD would leave 330d drivers dazed, confused & far behind me! The torque was absolutely atounding But & a big BUT it cost me 2 sports clutches ,two Dual mass flywheels also the planet gear collapsed due to the torque it put out, did not bode well though...
gerradiuk said:
Wiggy ,why not have some real fun & convert the 330D!
My JTD would leave 330d drivers dazed, confused & far behind me! The torque was absolutely atounding But & a big BUT it cost me 2 sports clutches ,two Dual mass flywheels also the planet gear collapsed due to the torque it put out, did not bode well though...
Im already on the second clutch .... saving my pennies My JTD would leave 330d drivers dazed, confused & far behind me! The torque was absolutely atounding But & a big BUT it cost me 2 sports clutches ,two Dual mass flywheels also the planet gear collapsed due to the torque it put out, did not bode well though...
There was a couple of TVR's (griffs/chims? - sorry forgot) which had been converted. One had the boot filled with the lpg tank, one had a LPG bottle then a specially made petrol tank on top to maximise boot space.
Personally I'm trying to leave mine standard (ish) and fuel is the cheapest of my running costs
Weight wise, when I had mine 4 corner weighed, it came out about 52% front 48% rear, fairly evenly balanced. How much weight would a lpg tank add then to the rear?
Personally I'm trying to leave mine standard (ish) and fuel is the cheapest of my running costs
Weight wise, when I had mine 4 corner weighed, it came out about 52% front 48% rear, fairly evenly balanced. How much weight would a lpg tank add then to the rear?
gerradiuk said:
Dave I have been through the Lpg for performance cars since 1999 up to 2010, I was/am the 1st person in UK to have a Maserati converted to LPG
http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Maserati.html
Before that a twin Turbo Jaguar Chasseur, A 540i also I converted a alfa JTD diesel as "They" said it could not safely be done ... I did it very fast job done!
I know all about LPG Injection systems or should I say pulse switch systems as they are hardly "injectors" are they, the reason I said a single point as this would work very easily & can be fitted by a comparative novice, the tuning can be a bit more difficult compared to the "Multi-point"systems but are a lot cheaper to fix as no computer or clogged switches (inj) due to heavy ends because of crap UK mix! the europe mix is a better mix than here less problems.
The main reason though is the weight distribution just ruins the handling, unless you want to spend quite a bit on heaver duty suspension bushes, better sb hocks , A/roll bars & a good Geo set up to get it back to the way it is meant to handle, which costs a bomb which defeats the whole object, ask how I know ...This cost me a small fortune to get it handling correctly
Hope will help the OP make a decision like this may do
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=48
I did the take & pass the installer's course at Worldwide Autoworld to fit Romano N & another to fit BRC systems after some bodge jobs on some of my cars namely 1st one mentioned.
All good stuff gerradiuk, but putting a single point LPG system on anything (let alone a performance car) is a crime & like going backwards 20 years.http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Maserati.html
Before that a twin Turbo Jaguar Chasseur, A 540i also I converted a alfa JTD diesel as "They" said it could not safely be done ... I did it very fast job done!
I know all about LPG Injection systems or should I say pulse switch systems as they are hardly "injectors" are they, the reason I said a single point as this would work very easily & can be fitted by a comparative novice, the tuning can be a bit more difficult compared to the "Multi-point"systems but are a lot cheaper to fix as no computer or clogged switches (inj) due to heavy ends because of crap UK mix! the europe mix is a better mix than here less problems.
The main reason though is the weight distribution just ruins the handling, unless you want to spend quite a bit on heaver duty suspension bushes, better sb hocks , A/roll bars & a good Geo set up to get it back to the way it is meant to handle, which costs a bomb which defeats the whole object, ask how I know ...This cost me a small fortune to get it handling correctly
Hope will help the OP make a decision like this may do
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=48
I did the take & pass the installer's course at Worldwide Autoworld to fit Romano N & another to fit BRC systems after some bodge jobs on some of my cars namely 1st one mentioned.
Edited by gerradiuk on Saturday 27th April 21:49
A single point system is like throwing away your petrol injection system & fitting a petrol carb, you just wouldn't do it.
Single point LPG systems are archaic and the origins of all the LPG myths of lost performance.
Truth is with a single point system the LPG performance loss is not a myth at all, its a reality.
I wouldn't even recommend a single point system for someone looking to convert a knackered old £800 Range Rover, single point systems are crude, inefficient and completely outdated.
There is absolutely no redeeming feature with a single point system, other than the fact it's cheap, it belongs on fork lift trucks and nowhere else.
And weight needn't be an issue either, I have an 8 gallon reserve petrol tank & two 30 litre LPG tanks holding 52 litres of gas.
Even if I brim the petrol tank (which is totally unnecessary) and fill the two LPG tanks to their maximum, the total additional weight is 40kg.
This is the equivalent of a couple of bags of sand over the rear axle line, go up two clicks on my rear Gaz Gold Pros and it's job done.
That 40kg soon becomes less than 20kg if you carry a more sensible petrol reserve of 4 gallons, and you've driven it a few miles on LPG.
These cars are already too light over the rear axle, the only difference I have found is the car is more stable at speed, gets better traction of the line & gives more confidence inspiring handling in the corners.
The problem for LPG is the stigma that it carries, people just can't seem to get that stigma out of their heads.
What it requires is people park their outdated perceptions of this fuel, in short it requires you to be open minded.
The open minded with some basic understanding of how an internal combustion engine works then just need to spend a morning updating themselves on how modern LPG engine management systems have moved the game on from those comically inefficient single point systems.
Just like petrol engine management systems moved things on from carbs & distributors, over 20 years ago.
If you're forward thinking & open minded enough to study the up-to-date facts around modern LPG engine management systems, you'll find the LPG stigma quickly disappears.
But it does require a logical open mind.
Fear, prejudice & ignorance are difficult things to overcome in any walk of life, sadly a lot of people seem to gain a feeling of security from being sceptical & dismissive of anything new.
Lets call these people the "Doubters".
Fortunately there is another type of person, lets call him the "Innovator".
The innovator ignores the misconceptions & ignorance of the doubters, typically holding firm to his beliefs taking confidence from the unshakable rules of mathematics, physics & chemistry.
History is littered with "Innovators" that were brave enough to ignore the ignorant "Doubters", and it's the innovators that have always moved things on to the eventual benefit of everyone.
I short, history tells us if innovators had listened to all the doubters and naysayers, we would still be living in caves & be riding about in horse & carriages.
LPG is not what is was, & it's not what you think it is, get your self updated & stop being a doubter.
At worst you'll end up less ignorant, at best you may even decide a TVR with no performance loss or change of character that now does 40mpg is a rather good idea after all
I think the ajp is too sensitive and fragile to run on gas. We have used LPG for 12 years in the family now so I do see the point of it. How ever potential damage to fuel cost is not viable in my view. And I think as said around 30mpg cost equivalent is more realistic in a cerb. Plus fuel cost is s the least expensive bit of cerb ownership
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