Clutch problem, help required
Discussion
A few weeks ago whilst driving the clutch pedal on my Cerbera suddenly felt soft and it was difficult to engage gears, after a few miles the gear selection felt better but the pedal still felt soft. We had been in traffic for some time so I thought that is was heat sink from the cats affecting the clutch slave as the cabin and gearstick were uncomfortably warm.
Looking under the car the bottom of the bell housing was wet with clutch/brake fluid so my hope was that it was just the clutch slave that had died, I bled the system with new fluid but it felt no better.
I have been putting off the job of pulling it to bits fearing the can of worms I might be opening until today. I thought I might be in luck when every part I took off the car was labelled with the vehicle reg but when I got the bell housing off there is what I believe to be the original Mk1 clutch with a finger missing having covered 27,000miles and it having felt so progressive I was hoping it had been changed to the later style. I am assuming it is a Mk1 as I cannot see any springs in the friction plates looking through the fingers in the pressure plate, the car is an early 1997 4.2, the slave is also wet and looks to have been leaking a bit for many years, one of the starter motor bolt holes only appears to have half the threads it should so all in all not a very good day!
I am after some help and advice as to what my options are? From what I have read of other owners cars on Piston heads my understanding is that the Mk2 clutch isn’t compatible with the MK1 flywheel, possibly the bell housing and the slave? Having been looking around at prices a Mk2 clutch is £888 (just gone up!), RP slave cylinder £270, flywheel £360, thrust bearing £16 not including a bell housing if required. Anyone got any parts that I can buy or point me in the right direction of a more affordable route?
Whilst I am at it and it is all off I am wanting to decat to try and reduce the heat sink problems I have been experiencing whilst in traffic, and put a pair of silencers in the tunnel to try and reduce the drone from the sports exhaust so if anyone has got any old cats or decat pipes please let me know?
As always any help and advice gratefully received.
Looking under the car the bottom of the bell housing was wet with clutch/brake fluid so my hope was that it was just the clutch slave that had died, I bled the system with new fluid but it felt no better.
I have been putting off the job of pulling it to bits fearing the can of worms I might be opening until today. I thought I might be in luck when every part I took off the car was labelled with the vehicle reg but when I got the bell housing off there is what I believe to be the original Mk1 clutch with a finger missing having covered 27,000miles and it having felt so progressive I was hoping it had been changed to the later style. I am assuming it is a Mk1 as I cannot see any springs in the friction plates looking through the fingers in the pressure plate, the car is an early 1997 4.2, the slave is also wet and looks to have been leaking a bit for many years, one of the starter motor bolt holes only appears to have half the threads it should so all in all not a very good day!
I am after some help and advice as to what my options are? From what I have read of other owners cars on Piston heads my understanding is that the Mk2 clutch isn’t compatible with the MK1 flywheel, possibly the bell housing and the slave? Having been looking around at prices a Mk2 clutch is £888 (just gone up!), RP slave cylinder £270, flywheel £360, thrust bearing £16 not including a bell housing if required. Anyone got any parts that I can buy or point me in the right direction of a more affordable route?
Whilst I am at it and it is all off I am wanting to decat to try and reduce the heat sink problems I have been experiencing whilst in traffic, and put a pair of silencers in the tunnel to try and reduce the drone from the sports exhaust so if anyone has got any old cats or decat pipes please let me know?
As always any help and advice gratefully received.
Many thanks for the offer of the 4.5 cats, I know they are a bit shorter than the 4.2's but I am sure I can extend to the right length with the welder, at least I would have the right flanges for each end.
Having spent far too much time last night pricing up parts I have found the clutch slightly cheaper but have seen light weight flywheels as well as standard, anyone using a light weight flywheel and what advantages/disadvantages do you have or will I have? Will the light weigh flywheel have any influence on the bell housing?
Having spent far too much time last night pricing up parts I have found the clutch slightly cheaper but have seen light weight flywheels as well as standard, anyone using a light weight flywheel and what advantages/disadvantages do you have or will I have? Will the light weigh flywheel have any influence on the bell housing?
If upgrading to the later clutch is too costly there are plenty of companies out there who will rebuild a clutch pressure plate, re line the friction material, fit new seals to the slave cylinder and skim the flywheel. A quick search on google will bring up the companies just give them a call.
The decat pipes from are nothing more than of steel tubes ACT sell a set of silenced decats which help a little. If you think it is heat soak then exhaust wrap around the pipes near to the bellhousing will help a lot. The cats are from memory further back than the slave cylinder.
The decat pipes from are nothing more than of steel tubes ACT sell a set of silenced decats which help a little. If you think it is heat soak then exhaust wrap around the pipes near to the bellhousing will help a lot. The cats are from memory further back than the slave cylinder.
Was chatting to Vee8ight yesterday at Blackheath, at the end of the tunnel run. His Cerbera clutch pedal was going straight to the floor, like yours, and the problem had been getting worse the last few weeks. He had already bought the master and slave bits last week to change it, but had spent the time he had available last week making the exhaust louder first (Cerb owners what are you like? 
)
Amongst the comments he made, he said he noticed when he had no pedal he also seemed to have no fluid in the system, but filling it up didn't solve the problem. He also said that when doing the fluid levels he noticed that the clutch fluid temperature was seriously high (ie probably boiling), and he wondered if the route taken by the pipes was half his problem? Just a thought while you have the thing in bits. I wonder if the state of your clutch fingers has not very much to do with the fluid everywhere or the loss of the pedal.
Good luck whatever the issues
)Amongst the comments he made, he said he noticed when he had no pedal he also seemed to have no fluid in the system, but filling it up didn't solve the problem. He also said that when doing the fluid levels he noticed that the clutch fluid temperature was seriously high (ie probably boiling), and he wondered if the route taken by the pipes was half his problem? Just a thought while you have the thing in bits. I wonder if the state of your clutch fingers has not very much to do with the fluid everywhere or the loss of the pedal.
Good luck whatever the issues
Hi thanks for the info, I have had a look at relining the clutch but most companies I have come across don't mention rebuilding the pressure plate, I have found the pressure plate spring available (£225 on its own) but in the description it says "It is very awkward and patience/time may well be required to get the clutch work correctly or acceptably" before refitting the gearbox which I haven't got a spare input shaft so not sure that's an option. I also haven't taken the clutch off yet to find out what damage the broken finger has done as it must be lodged in the clutch somewhere.
The decat pipes from ACT as you say look like 2 tubes but they also do a linked decat I believe but couldn't see that illustrated, I am concerned the decat silencers aren't going to do very much, are they only going to drop the noise similar to having the cats in? The other decat pipes I have been looking at look like 2 cats without the internals, so visually look like cats are fitted.
The cats as you say are behind the bell housing but when the gear knob is so hot you cannot hold it the bell housing and slave must also be at a very high temperature and from reading other posts I am not alone with other owners suffering slave failures after being stuck in traffic and the cabin/gearbox having got very warm.
Changing to the later clutch is costly and I would rather not pay out £1500-1600 + a bell housing just to have a new clutch, but if no one is able to help with any of the parts required then I will have no option but to pay it.
The decat pipes from ACT as you say look like 2 tubes but they also do a linked decat I believe but couldn't see that illustrated, I am concerned the decat silencers aren't going to do very much, are they only going to drop the noise similar to having the cats in? The other decat pipes I have been looking at look like 2 cats without the internals, so visually look like cats are fitted.
The cats as you say are behind the bell housing but when the gear knob is so hot you cannot hold it the bell housing and slave must also be at a very high temperature and from reading other posts I am not alone with other owners suffering slave failures after being stuck in traffic and the cabin/gearbox having got very warm.
Changing to the later clutch is costly and I would rather not pay out £1500-1600 + a bell housing just to have a new clutch, but if no one is able to help with any of the parts required then I will have no option but to pay it.
Hi QBEE, I think I am in the minority of Cerbera owners a I am trying to make mine quieter though someone in the past has made it louder with the sports exhausts which after driving for an hour or so with the window open as it is so hot in the cabin leaves me with partial deafness in my right ear for a couple of hours!
My clutch problem was sudden and I still had a pedal but it felt soft, I think the residue of fluid around the slave cylinder between it and the gearbox has leaked over a long time when the temperature has increased from being in traffic and the bell housing and slave have grown in size at different rates due to the heat sink. I think the finger breaking has probably allowed the slave to tip or move slightly more than it did before and this has caused my fluid to start to leak faster and the wetness on the bottom of the bell housing. I think you are right the clutch feed pipe does run directly down the side of the right hand header with no heat shielding and the clutch bleed pipe is running straight up where all the excess heat is coming up past when in traffic so I am sure this isn't helping with the fluid boiling/getting hot either.
My clutch problem was sudden and I still had a pedal but it felt soft, I think the residue of fluid around the slave cylinder between it and the gearbox has leaked over a long time when the temperature has increased from being in traffic and the bell housing and slave have grown in size at different rates due to the heat sink. I think the finger breaking has probably allowed the slave to tip or move slightly more than it did before and this has caused my fluid to start to leak faster and the wetness on the bottom of the bell housing. I think you are right the clutch feed pipe does run directly down the side of the right hand header with no heat shielding and the clutch bleed pipe is running straight up where all the excess heat is coming up past when in traffic so I am sure this isn't helping with the fluid boiling/getting hot either.
You might gain something from a chat with Vee8ight. Pool your knowledge. I know him fairly well and know he won't mind a call. He might gain something from your knowledge. He knows about noisy Cerbs too
He gave out his mobile number on:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... on page 15, and it is on his business website anyway.
He gave out his mobile number on:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... on page 15, and it is on his business website anyway.
Hi Mr Cerbera, I was hoping for some help and some different ideas of a how to fix it, yesterday I ran out of time to get the clutch off the flywheel, as the time I had allocated to do the job didn't go according to plan as the 4 bolts holding the gearbox to the bell housing had been thread locked in and after much trouble the only way I could get them out was to heat the area on the bell housing around the bolts to melt the thread lock and 1 broken extension bar later I had run out of time and patience. Also having seen the broken finger I was expecting to be throwing the clutch away and fitting a new one, I have not seen a single post where anyone has rebuilt a clutch. I have read the post of trying to use Mk1 parts in a Mk2 clutch and the problems that resulted and in the end using a mk2 flywheel and modified slave, if I were in the lucky position as you with a Mk2 setup I would be laughing and wouldn't have posted for help.
I am not talking about water temp or oil temp of 100degrees, the cats run at optimum of 500degrees and can easily peak at 700degrees and there are 2 of them creating that sort of heat under the middle of the car, the heat then comes up and around the bell housing and exist through the bonnet vent in front of the scuttle when sat in traffic, if the gear knob is too hot to hold onto I certainly wouldn't want to be touching the bell housing and clutch slave which are going to be considerably hotter. There are a number of posts this year where members cars have lost the clutch due to having been sat in traffic and the heat build up either boiling the clutch fluid or buggering up the slaves I am not making this stuff up.
You scoffed at the price of £534 all in and I am looking at 3 times that, I know the clutches have just gone up but where did you find the clutch for that sort of money? If you could please let me know I would find that very helpful.
I am not talking about water temp or oil temp of 100degrees, the cats run at optimum of 500degrees and can easily peak at 700degrees and there are 2 of them creating that sort of heat under the middle of the car, the heat then comes up and around the bell housing and exist through the bonnet vent in front of the scuttle when sat in traffic, if the gear knob is too hot to hold onto I certainly wouldn't want to be touching the bell housing and clutch slave which are going to be considerably hotter. There are a number of posts this year where members cars have lost the clutch due to having been sat in traffic and the heat build up either boiling the clutch fluid or buggering up the slaves I am not making this stuff up.
You scoffed at the price of £534 all in and I am looking at 3 times that, I know the clutches have just gone up but where did you find the clutch for that sort of money? If you could please let me know I would find that very helpful.
Hi Mr cerbera, I wasn't wanting you to remove your post we are all on here to help each other out and there are going to be other members that will have had to go through the same process as me due to the mk1 clutches not being available and the mk2 not being compatible without modification. I was hoping someone would come along and say this is the bits you need, or you can do it like this or I have a late flywheel you can buy.
If you could let me know where you bought your clutch from at that price I would appreciate it.
Thanks Qbee I will give him a ring and hopefully pool some ideas, he might be in the same boat as me as his is also a 97 car but with 47k it is likely to have had a clutch and slave changed/upgraded already.
If you could let me know where you bought your clutch from at that price I would appreciate it.
Thanks Qbee I will give him a ring and hopefully pool some ideas, he might be in the same boat as me as his is also a 97 car but with 47k it is likely to have had a clutch and slave changed/upgraded already.
Hi Mr cerbera, I wasn't wanting you to remove your post we are all on here to help each other out and there are going to be other members that will have had to go through the same process as me due to the mk1 clutches not being available and the mk2 not being compatible without modification. I was hoping someone would come along and say this is the bits you need, or you can do it like this or I have a late flywheel you can buy.
If you could let me know where you bought your clutch from at that price I would appreciate it.
Thanks Qbee I will give him a ring and hopefully pool some ideas, he might be in the same boat as me as his is also a 97 car but with 47k it is likely to have had a clutch and slave changed/upgraded already.
If you could let me know where you bought your clutch from at that price I would appreciate it.
Thanks Qbee I will give him a ring and hopefully pool some ideas, he might be in the same boat as me as his is also a 97 car but with 47k it is likely to have had a clutch and slave changed/upgraded already.
Supateg said:
Well worth reading the above as it certainly seems possible to convert over to newer clutch without too much expense, once a new style flywheel has been sourced that is. But atleast the expense of bell housing can be avoided.Hi supateg and Sonnylad, thanks for the help I did come across that post today and was going to compare my bell housing with the picture of Sonnylad's later one to see if I could see any difference, from what I have been told this evening the bell housing in mine might be ok but I might have to either grind a bit off the bell housing or grind the corners off the bolts holding the clutch to the flywheel as the corner of the clutch is a different shape. What did confuse me in the thread was where it said about grinding the bolt heads on the original flywheel fitment to clear the springs in the new friction plates which Jimm218 decided not to do as it would have left too little meat on the bolt heads once the clearance had been made. So I am still at a loss as to what the difference with the Mk1 and Mk2 flywheels are and what the benefits of a light weight flywheel are apart from it being a bit cheaper! lol
If I have got it right to fit the later clutch I will need to either shorten the slave cylinder by 5mm or fit the later style slave otherwise the clutch will be held open all the time and the setting up of the clutch pedal push rod should be so when the pedal is on the floor it only just opens up the clutch.
No one has offered me a later flywheel yet.
Tomorrow I am going to price up how much it is to rebuild my existing clutch but also strip down the clutch and slave to see if reusing either of these are an option or whether it is going to be all new.
If I have got it right to fit the later clutch I will need to either shorten the slave cylinder by 5mm or fit the later style slave otherwise the clutch will be held open all the time and the setting up of the clutch pedal push rod should be so when the pedal is on the floor it only just opens up the clutch.
No one has offered me a later flywheel yet.
Tomorrow I am going to price up how much it is to rebuild my existing clutch but also strip down the clutch and slave to see if reusing either of these are an option or whether it is going to be all new.
Hello
I've converted the early bellhousing to the later style cylinder as the difference was in the length of slave cylinder to accomodate the deeper later clutch, so its a case of pushing out the old cylinder and fitting the later / shorter one.
When you come to fit the new one ensure that the cylinder bleed holes are at the top and use Dot 5.1 fluid as this boils at a lot higher temperature
Drilling a vent hole in the top of the housing also helps a lot to let the hot air out I did a series of 6mm holes to provide a 'grill' and not lose too much strength.
and also when you come to fit the new clutch ensure that you fit some sort of pedal stop as its all to easy to overstroke the clutch spring and its this that causes them to break prematurely
I've converted the early bellhousing to the later style cylinder as the difference was in the length of slave cylinder to accomodate the deeper later clutch, so its a case of pushing out the old cylinder and fitting the later / shorter one.
When you come to fit the new one ensure that the cylinder bleed holes are at the top and use Dot 5.1 fluid as this boils at a lot higher temperature
Drilling a vent hole in the top of the housing also helps a lot to let the hot air out I did a series of 6mm holes to provide a 'grill' and not lose too much strength.
and also when you come to fit the new clutch ensure that you fit some sort of pedal stop as its all to easy to overstroke the clutch spring and its this that causes them to break prematurely
Hi 350matt, many thanks for the info, did you also change the flywheel or have to modify it to clear the springs? I am considering getting the existing slave turned down to shorten it the 5mm as the surfaces are in great shape on strip down and inspection the fluid leak is from between the back of the slave and the bell housing aluminium face not from the seals on the piston. My selection problems have been the broken piece of clutch finger was jammed in between the rear most friction plate and pressure plate so the clutch couldn't disengage. I will have to have a look at how far the clutch pedal is traveling past the point of the clutch opening as this could be one of the reasons mine has failed as I always push the pedal down as far as it goes.
I am waiting to hear back on prices and availability at the moment.
I am waiting to hear back on prices and availability at the moment.
Tarmacshredder said:
No one has offered me a later flywheel yet.
Not quite correct anymore. 
I have a later flywheel and clutch basket left from when I changed to a lightweight one. The clutch basket and fingers are fine but one of the friction plates has cracks and the relining specialist I sent it to advised against using it. PM me if it will help.Hi Tanguero, many thanks for the reply and offer of flywheel and clutch basket, I will drop you a PM, what difference have you found with the light weight flywheel disadvantages and advantages?
I have just measured the clutch slave piston off my car at 49.5mm in length without the bearing, I was expecting it to be 55mm from other posts I have read does this sound right? Looking at the images of Sonnylads bell housing mine looks the same internally but the gearbox face on the back is totally different with 4 lugs sticking out of it rather than the machined flat face of Mr Cerberas bell housing also my clutch slave exterior cylinder comes almost flush with the internal of the bell housing where as his finishes almost 1/2 way up the slave cylinder.
I have just measured the clutch slave piston off my car at 49.5mm in length without the bearing, I was expecting it to be 55mm from other posts I have read does this sound right? Looking at the images of Sonnylads bell housing mine looks the same internally but the gearbox face on the back is totally different with 4 lugs sticking out of it rather than the machined flat face of Mr Cerberas bell housing also my clutch slave exterior cylinder comes almost flush with the internal of the bell housing where as his finishes almost 1/2 way up the slave cylinder.
On the plus side the lightweight flywheel makes it rev like a bike, on the minus side it tends to shunt slightly when pottering along on very light throttle. In all honesty, I am not sure that it made enough difference that I would spend money on it again.
Can you post pics showing the measurements you mention? Unfortunately I just put mine back together or I would be able to take comparative measurements, but I will probably have some pics of the inside of my bell housing I can post for comparison later this evening.
Can you post pics showing the measurements you mention? Unfortunately I just put mine back together or I would be able to take comparative measurements, but I will probably have some pics of the inside of my bell housing I can post for comparison later this evening.
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