£2,000 for a new...
Discussion
...clutch?
We bought our 4 year old 4.5l LW back in July with 12,000 miles on the clock (and with no previous track days the garage claimed! One previous owner, etc).
We have added 2k more miles (and no track days or even "hard" driving) and the clutch has burnt out. The repair garage is claiming a whole new clutch (slave cylinder, piston [ring??] and clutch plate) is now required - at a cost of £2,000 including VAT.
The garage claims no part has broken, but that the condition is due to normal wear (but worryingly also said it was due to "hard" driving and asked how many track days we had done!)
So - I have searched this site and spoken to a few more mechanically minded people than me and the consensus seems to be:
1. The clutch going as it has seems a bit unusual (unless the car had been 'track dayed'??)
2. The cost quoted seems excessive for the repair
Any thoughts or suggestions gratefully received before I hand over the £2k. Thanks everyone.
We bought our 4 year old 4.5l LW back in July with 12,000 miles on the clock (and with no previous track days the garage claimed! One previous owner, etc).
We have added 2k more miles (and no track days or even "hard" driving) and the clutch has burnt out. The repair garage is claiming a whole new clutch (slave cylinder, piston [ring??] and clutch plate) is now required - at a cost of £2,000 including VAT.
The garage claims no part has broken, but that the condition is due to normal wear (but worryingly also said it was due to "hard" driving and asked how many track days we had done!)
So - I have searched this site and spoken to a few more mechanically minded people than me and the consensus seems to be:
1. The clutch going as it has seems a bit unusual (unless the car had been 'track dayed'??)
2. The cost quoted seems excessive for the repair
Any thoughts or suggestions gratefully received before I hand over the £2k. Thanks everyone.
I don't think it fair that after six months, you expect your dealer to pay for a new clutch. But he might contribute with a discount off the labour rate or parts if you have only done 2000 miles.
For the record, TVR RRP is (and you might not need all these parts):-
E1327 clutch piston seat (@ £11.20)
E1328 clutch piston seat (@ £11.00)
E1377 clutch o ring 75 i/d x2 (@ £0.72)
E1378 clutch o ring 861 i/d x2.5 (@ £2.08)
Q0107 clutch thrust bearing (@ £13.09)
Q0365 AJP clutch ass twin plate (@ £457.00)
Q0317 bell housing inner (@ £59.89)
Q0316 clutch piston (@ £43.93)
Q0315 cylinder sleeve (@ £70.82)
all plus VAT. And 3-5 hours to fit perhaps?
For the record, TVR RRP is (and you might not need all these parts):-
E1327 clutch piston seat (@ £11.20)
E1328 clutch piston seat (@ £11.00)
E1377 clutch o ring 75 i/d x2 (@ £0.72)
E1378 clutch o ring 861 i/d x2.5 (@ £2.08)
Q0107 clutch thrust bearing (@ £13.09)
Q0365 AJP clutch ass twin plate (@ £457.00)
Q0317 bell housing inner (@ £59.89)
Q0316 clutch piston (@ £43.93)
Q0315 cylinder sleeve (@ £70.82)
all plus VAT. And 3-5 hours to fit perhaps?
tvrinbfg said:
I don't think it fair that after six months, you expect your dealer to pay for a new clutch.
I do.
You pay a £3k+ premium to the dealer over buying privately, if situations like this aren't the reason why you do that, then I'm beggared if I know why anyone does! If I were to ever buy a car from a dealer (not likely to happen for precisely this reason), I'd not expect to have to hand a penny over for anything other than routine servicing (and items universally classed as wearables) for the first 12 months. Don't care what any third party warranty they choose to sell on says, those'd be the terms I'd want from the dealer, or I'd walk out.
Edited to add: If I were to buy a TV, or any other item of electrical goods, etc. from a company supposedly "expert" in that area, and anything went wrong with it within twelve months then I wouldn't expect to have to pay a penny towards it (whether it was pre-used or not). Unless I'd expressly agreed to anything under a one year warranty, that is. Cars should be no different - especially given the cost and the amount of mark-up...
>> Edited by J_S_G on Saturday 8th January 21:05
J_S_G said:
I don't think it fair that after six months, you expect your dealer to pay for a new clutch.
I do.
If I were to ever buy a car from a dealer (not likely to happen for precisely this reason), I'd not expect to have to hand a penny over for anything other than routine servicing (and items universally classed as wearables) for the first 12 months. Don't care what any third party warranty they choose to sell on says, those'd be the terms I'd want from the dealer, or I'd walk out.
Edited to add: If I were to buy a TV, or any other item of electrical goods, etc. from a company supposedly "expert" in that area, and anything went wrong with it within twelve months then I wouldn't expect to have to pay a penny towards it (whether it was pre-used or not). Unless I'd expressly agreed to anything under a one year warranty, that is. Cars should be no different - especially given the cost and the amount of mark-up...
>> Edited by J_S_G on Saturday 8th January 21:05
Sorry JSG, utter crap. (no offense)
If you buy a car (any car) without warranty you cannot expect the dealer to pay for a wear & tear item six months down the line. Thats why you get a warranty & know were you stand PRIOR to things going wrong, not after.
Also the on the TV/ electrial point - i too would have the same expectation when buying new, but on a second hand car? In all honesty, no.
If the car in question is still under warranty then fair enough, dealers problem.
As for the cerb in question NEVER being driven hard, come on, they have all been driven hard. You don't put up with crap mpg, iffy build, expensive insurance & servicing to potter about.
Re mark up - I've just been looking around autotrader etc at Grifs, Cerb 4.5s, Tuscans and Tamoras; and I generally don't think you do pay a £3+ premium buying from a dealer rather than private. And if you do pay over the odds, that's perhaps your own fault, because there are genuine dealers out there doing fair deals.
Plus what you do get from a decent dealer is a car that (usually) includes a service (retail cost £400-1k), nose painted for stonechips (£500-750), alloys refurbed (£100-250), a decent warranty (and I take your point, but for arguements sake say £500-700 for the ones I use), a valet (£40-70), perhaps an over allowance for the trade in, etc. Plus the dealer (usually) has some knowledge of what to look for when buying.
Re what to expect from a car - There usually is goodwill, and most dealers I know, will do something goodwill-wise re a clutch going after 2000 miles. But in this case, it is a second hand four year old car, and in particular a wear and tear item (handling over 400 bhp), but has lasted 14000 miles, so why is it the dealers fault? If the dealer had sold the car with the clutch on its way out, or its gone very shortly after purchase, I would totally agree that he should pay for it. But with the second owner, it has been used for six months and maybe during this time the clutch has been ridden (there isn't much space for the left foot after all), the car trackdayed, traffic light grand prix'd, donuts, thrashed etc.
So IMO it's not fair to blame the dealer and (I made it above in a slightly roundabout way) it's also not fair that this chap has a £2k bill too.
Plus what you do get from a decent dealer is a car that (usually) includes a service (retail cost £400-1k), nose painted for stonechips (£500-750), alloys refurbed (£100-250), a decent warranty (and I take your point, but for arguements sake say £500-700 for the ones I use), a valet (£40-70), perhaps an over allowance for the trade in, etc. Plus the dealer (usually) has some knowledge of what to look for when buying.
Re what to expect from a car - There usually is goodwill, and most dealers I know, will do something goodwill-wise re a clutch going after 2000 miles. But in this case, it is a second hand four year old car, and in particular a wear and tear item (handling over 400 bhp), but has lasted 14000 miles, so why is it the dealers fault? If the dealer had sold the car with the clutch on its way out, or its gone very shortly after purchase, I would totally agree that he should pay for it. But with the second owner, it has been used for six months and maybe during this time the clutch has been ridden (there isn't much space for the left foot after all), the car trackdayed, traffic light grand prix'd, donuts, thrashed etc.
So IMO it's not fair to blame the dealer and (I made it above in a slightly roundabout way) it's also not fair that this chap has a £2k bill too.
I agree with tvrinbfg totally. When I bought mine there were cheaper "good" Cerbs out there and although mine seemed expensive all the extra bits and after service I received was well worth every penny. (thanks you). My clutch went after having the car 6 weeks (ish) and was replaced quickly without question or any cost to me. Even travelled for hours to collect and deliver back. Also did the same for other little niggles. Very thinkful and would buy my next from him.
As for it being 6 months down the road I honestly wouldn't expect him to do that.
As for it being 6 months down the road I honestly wouldn't expect him to do that.
darreni said:
If you buy a car (any car) without warranty you cannot expect the dealer to pay
Hang on a sec... I never said without warranty! I meant that if they sell you a warranty, I don't think it's on that you're then held to p*ssy terms of some third party policy; there should be some decency on the dealer's part here... If you buy a warranty from them, as far as I'm concerned it should be a comprehensive warranty (unless expressly stated otherwise). If part of that includes a third party warranty, and they make up the difference in "good will", then fine. Problem is, dealers generally make out that warranties do cover everything, then funnily enough it turns out down the line that they don't.
(Edited to add: and if you don't talk to the dealer about the warranty terms they're giving you when you buy, I think that's a whole different situation - and it is, to some extent the buyer's responsibility for not bringing the subject up)
darreni said:
for a wear & tear item six months down the line.
... and I said apart from items universally accepted as wear & tear, too.
Thats why you get a warranty & know were you stand PRIOR to things going wrong, not after.
darreni said:
Also the on the TV/ electrial point - i too would have the same expectation when buying new, but on a second hand car? In all honesty, no.
I'd still say "yes". Otherwise why are you buying from a dealer? Sorry, but if they're charging £3k over private sale price, and they buy them at £3k BELOW private sale price, then you'd bl**dy well better get a warranty for the £6k they're making out of the sale! It does NOT cost (especially to a dealer) anywhere near that to service a car, etc. And as for taking care of stone-chips, etc. - I could take you to a main dealer not a million miles from me where I could show you cars that haven't even been WASHED properly, let alone had any bodywork issues taken care of.
Again, these are my expectations if I were to buy from a dealer. And this is precisely why I won't buy from dealers - because I wouldn't get the service I'd expect.
(And I do have a whole heap of experience in selling second hand cars...)
>> Edited by J_S_G on Saturday 8th January 22:19
davetherave1970 said:
As for it being 6 months down the road I honestly wouldn't expect him to do that.
What if you'd only done 2k miles in that 6 months? And you were told it was totally burnt out? And the car had only done 14,000 miles in total?
Sorry, but if it had lasted a reasonable/acceptable period of time - i.e. a nice 5-figure number of miles further, or the owner had put a lot more miles on it, etc. then I wouldn't expect the dealer to take care of this... but a completely new clutch within 2k miles and a few months of buying the car, at well below its expected lifetime? Not on.
I'd expect some kind of "help" from the dealer here - even if it was just free labour. If I'd discussed warranty terms when I bought it (which I would have), I wouldn't be expecting to pay a penny. (Again, this is what I'D do, not what I expect others DO do)
>> Edited by J_S_G on Saturday 8th January 22:20
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