Water pump/oil pump
Discussion
If you have problems in finding one, then a Davies Craig EWP and digital controller would do just as well. Their highest rated pump flows at 150l/min, which is plenty for the Cerbera. The controller manages the pump and the fans, and keeps the temp rock solid at your desired preset. I have had a lower rate pump fitted as a piggy-back arrangement to my car as I did not feel inclined to remove the engine. This has been paired with a high-current single 16inch Spal fan (which has the same swept area as two 11 inch fans) and a customised ally radiator shroud. Looking good so far, and you always have an accurate readout on the display screen.
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-e1...
But one hell of a price, now machined from a solid billet. Had to help a friend of mine replace the one he cracked.
But one hell of a price, now machined from a solid billet. Had to help a friend of mine replace the one he cracked.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=541...
worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
fatjon said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=541...
worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
Interesting.. But having seen one in action on Aide's magnificent Cerb, it sat idling for well over an hour in the sunshine and never budged from the set 83 degrees, I believe his works perfectly for a Cerb. Installed by Joolz.worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
Interesting topic as I have an electric water pump on my 4.5 and the original pump was removed by TVR when it went back u for some work doing!!
Only a few weeks ago I was sat in a horrendous traffic jam for almost two hours and the water temp never went above 83 degrees.
The thermostat and associated pipework has been removed and the both fans are controlled by the water pump electronics.
Only a few weeks ago I was sat in a horrendous traffic jam for almost two hours and the water temp never went above 83 degrees.
The thermostat and associated pipework has been removed and the both fans are controlled by the water pump electronics.
Thanks guys, Indeed I'm not keen on the electric water pump for this application, Think a mechanical jobbie will be the ticket, not only that but even in traffic I had no problems with overheating anyway!
I saw them for sale on the site, and nearly fell over at the price! I'm going to have a word with my machinist as I'm sure he could make one for less than that money!
Would rather have bought a second hand pump as at least I would have spares in case of any other issues.
J
I saw them for sale on the site, and nearly fell over at the price! I'm going to have a word with my machinist as I'm sure he could make one for less than that money!
Would rather have bought a second hand pump as at least I would have spares in case of any other issues.
J
Sitting idling is not where the water pump gets its real test. At idle there's no shortage of flow of water but a shortage of airflow. At speed you have plenty of airflow but if you don't pump the water around fast enough you will have expensive problems. Belting down the motorway on a hot summers day is the acid test, or god forbid, a track day.
I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
fatjon said:
Sitting idling is not where the water pump gets its real test. At idle there's no shortage of flow of water but a shortage of airflow. At speed you have plenty of airflow but if you don't pump the water around fast enough you will have expensive problems. Belting down the motorway on a hot summers day is the acid test, or god forbid, a track day.
I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
Aide's setup uses this BMW pump.. He doesn't have any heat issues at all now as far as I am aware, and he likes to use his Cerb! Maybe he will see this and contribute.I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
Jhonno said:
fatjon said:
Sitting idling is not where the water pump gets its real test. At idle there's no shortage of flow of water but a shortage of airflow. At speed you have plenty of airflow but if you don't pump the water around fast enough you will have expensive problems. Belting down the motorway on a hot summers day is the acid test, or god forbid, a track day.
I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
Aide's setup uses this BMW pump.. He doesn't have any heat issues at all now as far as I am aware, and he likes to use his Cerb! Maybe he will see this and contribute.I'm not just being anti, I have tried them, they didn't work for me. I built a circa 400HP turbo charged T16 rover engine and because of the engine layout it was a real challenge to fit the OE water pump assembly which bolts onto the side of the engine as the turbo was too close to the rear facing water inlet hose. It overheated like crazy with the DC 150 electric pump, especially on boost and frequently blew off hoses when stopped with a good dose of heatsoak to get rid of. We gave up and re-engineered the turbo position by a few inches to make room for the OE mechanical pump, cured. Same result on a little A Series turbo and we also tried it on a pinto as a secondary pump, the pressure upstream of it was higher than downstream of it above 2500 RPM, it was actually reducing the flow as the mechanical water pump flowed so much faster than the electric.
I found out that some BMWs use an electric pump but it's a bloody big thing rated at 400W and that's on a much less powerful engine with a much less marginal cooling system too. I have these things down on my list with EBay electric superchargers.
Hi
The pump I have is a Pierburg CWA200 and the Controller is from a guy in Germany.
I got him to mod the firmware on mine to make the target temperature range narrower and more granular.
http://www.tecomotive.com/en/tinycwa-en
It's never missed a beat and the delayed shutdown is great.
HTH
Aide
ETA: this thread helped me choose the pump: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=115...
Page 14 of this has all the pump details:
http://s1.teamlearn.de/QuickPlace/b-9716-kfz-hesse...
Edited again just to add. Once we successfully reined-in coolant temp with the new EWP, a year later, we used it to control oil temp by adding a speed six oil cooler and an oil stat.
The pump I have is a Pierburg CWA200 and the Controller is from a guy in Germany.
I got him to mod the firmware on mine to make the target temperature range narrower and more granular.
http://www.tecomotive.com/en/tinycwa-en
It's never missed a beat and the delayed shutdown is great.
HTH
Aide
ETA: this thread helped me choose the pump: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=115...
Page 14 of this has all the pump details:
http://s1.teamlearn.de/QuickPlace/b-9716-kfz-hesse...
Edited again just to add. Once we successfully reined-in coolant temp with the new EWP, a year later, we used it to control oil temp by adding a speed six oil cooler and an oil stat.
Edited by aide on Wednesday 18th November 23:52
fatjon said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=541...
worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
the Davis Craig pumps are not positive displacement pumps so the if the flow of water from then main pump is greater it will happily flow over the DC impeller. I have used the DC pump as a booster pump onthe output of the engine block basically in the top hose. The cooling and engine temp in traffic is much better, and on track days or hard driving in the summer the temperature is much more stable. Most mechanical pumps are sized for aqequate cooling and flow at tick over speeds and in traffic and are massively oversized for fast driving. In theory an electrical pump is a much' more efficient solution and solves heat soak as the pump runs on until the water temp is below the set temp level. worth a look for some real world info about electric water pumps. They provide nothing like the flow they claim and putting one in line with an engine driven water pump would actually kill the flow as the engine pump is so much more powerful it actually ends up driving the impeller on the electric one so it just acts as a restrictor. These electric pumps have a 10A fuse, therefore the most power they can produce if they are 100% efficient is 120 watts, compare that with the 2-4Kw of the engine driven pump. There is a good reason that few, if any, car manufacturers have gone with electric water pumps despite the possible fuel efficiency saving at times when cooling requirement is minimal. To feed a pump of say 3KW at 12V would require a current of 250A, just not a practical proposition.
The additional complication on the V8 is that it has two water pumps, one per bank so engineering in a replacement is quite a task.
£180 for the impeller is a bit of a leg lift but is the right way to go if you like your engine.
Cost is the main reason manufacturers have not gone this route but as engines will have to become more efficient then more and more manufacturers will adopt electric pumps.
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