To modify or not?
Discussion
Hi all.
It's been a while since I have been here and I am out of touch with Cerbera stuff.
My 4.5 has been off the road for about 6 years and needs a full rebuild which I plan to do.
When I was checking out the forum and classifieds last evening I could find nothing about cars with engine swaps for LS which was all the rage when I had my Cerbera on the road. I also noticed that values have firmed quite a bit so spending on a refurb is worth doing.
Originality is usually quite important when it comes to the value of appreciating cars and I wonder how the engine swaps compare. Have any come up for sale, and if so, how did they fare?
Another question is regarding upgraded AJP's. Is the 4.7 still a desirable upgrade?
I have an LS7 in my Ultima, so know the LS engines and their effortless, reliable grunt and fitting one in a Cerbera would take it to another level of performance, but it would remove some of the character.
So, what are your thoughts and what are the facts?
Paul
PS. I don't want to get into a slanging match please, as people are entitled to their opinions.
It's been a while since I have been here and I am out of touch with Cerbera stuff.
My 4.5 has been off the road for about 6 years and needs a full rebuild which I plan to do.
When I was checking out the forum and classifieds last evening I could find nothing about cars with engine swaps for LS which was all the rage when I had my Cerbera on the road. I also noticed that values have firmed quite a bit so spending on a refurb is worth doing.
Originality is usually quite important when it comes to the value of appreciating cars and I wonder how the engine swaps compare. Have any come up for sale, and if so, how did they fare?
Another question is regarding upgraded AJP's. Is the 4.7 still a desirable upgrade?
I have an LS7 in my Ultima, so know the LS engines and their effortless, reliable grunt and fitting one in a Cerbera would take it to another level of performance, but it would remove some of the character.
So, what are your thoughts and what are the facts?
Paul
PS. I don't want to get into a slanging match please, as people are entitled to their opinions.
One thing's for sure - long-term you won't get any of the £20K -ish investment in a proper conversion back so if you do it, you should be 100% sure that this is what you want. A 4.7/4.8 AJP would be a safer bet as it represents the 'ultimate' road evolution of the engine that gave the car its character in the first place - but again: don't spend the £10-12K for anyone but yourself. 
Personally and professionally I am a great advocate of adding value rather than taking away from it by discarding major elements of a car that is complete & functional, some converted cars are being reduced to a TVR shell on completely different mechanicals with a wholesale renewed/replaced interior - which is sensible enough if the shell was the only useable part of the car to start with.
As far as I'm concerned, everything that needs to be replaced/rebuilt/refurbished at some point - brakes, suspension bits, lights, starter, alternator, wiring, and things that have become obsolete like electronics with sensors and actuators are fair game and I wouldn't go to great lenghts to keep things original if there's a functionally better, more reliable or more practical alternative. But that's just a question of personal attitude towards car restoration/modification
Personally and professionally I am a great advocate of adding value rather than taking away from it by discarding major elements of a car that is complete & functional, some converted cars are being reduced to a TVR shell on completely different mechanicals with a wholesale renewed/replaced interior - which is sensible enough if the shell was the only useable part of the car to start with.
As far as I'm concerned, everything that needs to be replaced/rebuilt/refurbished at some point - brakes, suspension bits, lights, starter, alternator, wiring, and things that have become obsolete like electronics with sensors and actuators are fair game and I wouldn't go to great lenghts to keep things original if there's a functionally better, more reliable or more practical alternative. But that's just a question of personal attitude towards car restoration/modification
Thanks for the replies.
Interesting that the Tamora is worth slightly MORE than a standard car.
The thing that is nagging at the back of my mind is that a full rebuild with a 4.7/4.8 AJP is about the same money as an LS swap but the motor could need doing again in 40k miles (or less!!!).
An LS would rarely give any trouble in 100k miles.
I have a while to investigate things further. Any LS engined Cerbera owners still on here, or have they been black balled?
Interesting that the Tamora is worth slightly MORE than a standard car.
The thing that is nagging at the back of my mind is that a full rebuild with a 4.7/4.8 AJP is about the same money as an LS swap but the motor could need doing again in 40k miles (or less!!!).
An LS would rarely give any trouble in 100k miles.
I have a while to investigate things further. Any LS engined Cerbera owners still on here, or have they been black balled?
Storer said:
... could need doing again in 40k miles (or less!!!).
As a matter of interest, why do you think this?I'm not aware of any issues with the AJP, mine and many others have done 60k miles plus without missing a beat. For many who have rebuilt theirs, I suspect it was simply another piece of the restoration puzzle, rather than a "need" to be done.
Mines recently been rebuilt, being an early 4.2 it was suffering from worn valve guides. Apparently the early ones with the chrome valves are prone to wear. That had almost 60K miles on it and was still pulling well, but was losing compression on cylinders 1&2 A complete rebuild with new crank, camshafts, machining and headwork etc was £12K.
This was from Str8Six, with a 3 year warranty. The engine is running sweeter than it ever has, I've done about 2K miles now, not stuck it on a rolling road yet, will add a few more miles first.
There's a few good engine builders, Jason at Str8Six, Dom at TVR Power, Andy at APM.
I looked at the LS route, but had other owners advise me of the costs they paid almost twice that amount in the end.
Advantages are 460bhp as standard on the LS3, different servicing costs, being different. Cons are originality lost, character change, cost, additional upgrades needed - brakes etc.
It's certainly the route to go if you want big power. A LS7 can give 560+bhp.
I'd use a recognised team that have done this, someone like topcats, if you were thinking of this, but don't think its a cheap option
This was from Str8Six, with a 3 year warranty. The engine is running sweeter than it ever has, I've done about 2K miles now, not stuck it on a rolling road yet, will add a few more miles first.
There's a few good engine builders, Jason at Str8Six, Dom at TVR Power, Andy at APM.
I looked at the LS route, but had other owners advise me of the costs they paid almost twice that amount in the end.
Advantages are 460bhp as standard on the LS3, different servicing costs, being different. Cons are originality lost, character change, cost, additional upgrades needed - brakes etc.
It's certainly the route to go if you want big power. A LS7 can give 560+bhp.
I'd use a recognised team that have done this, someone like topcats, if you were thinking of this, but don't think its a cheap option
Hi Paul
I'm having similar discussions as we decide whether to go the 4.5 AJP rebuild, 4.7 AJP upgrade or LS3 route.
We bought our Cerbera over twenty one months ago and soon discovered there were many issues. The engine wouldn't run, the water pump was leaking and the head gaskets had gone so it needed a rebuild.
Our present thoughts are:
The 4.5 AJP route pros - Straight forward rebuild cost and quickest way of getting the Cerb running again.
The 4.5 AJP route cons - AJP is a highly stressed engine and will probably need a rebuild in sixty thousand miles time.
The 4.7 AJP route pros - An engine with more torque will result in a nice road car plus keeps the sound and character of the Cerb. Good resale value. I think a 4.7 AJP will result in a less stressed engine.
The 4.7 AJP route cons - Additional £3,500 approx more investment in the AJP rebuild cost. Very specialist engine build.
The LS route pros - Good reliable power that suits the Cerb chassis.
The LS route cons - Initial modification cost. Character and sound of the car changed. Risk Cerb value at resale.
A & K
I'm having similar discussions as we decide whether to go the 4.5 AJP rebuild, 4.7 AJP upgrade or LS3 route.
We bought our Cerbera over twenty one months ago and soon discovered there were many issues. The engine wouldn't run, the water pump was leaking and the head gaskets had gone so it needed a rebuild.
Our present thoughts are:
The 4.5 AJP route pros - Straight forward rebuild cost and quickest way of getting the Cerb running again.
The 4.5 AJP route cons - AJP is a highly stressed engine and will probably need a rebuild in sixty thousand miles time.
The 4.7 AJP route pros - An engine with more torque will result in a nice road car plus keeps the sound and character of the Cerb. Good resale value. I think a 4.7 AJP will result in a less stressed engine.
The 4.7 AJP route cons - Additional £3,500 approx more investment in the AJP rebuild cost. Very specialist engine build.
The LS route pros - Good reliable power that suits the Cerb chassis.
The LS route cons - Initial modification cost. Character and sound of the car changed. Risk Cerb value at resale.
A & K
A and K Cerbera said:
The 4.5 AJP route cons - AJP is a highly stressed engine and will probably need a rebuild in sixty thousand miles time.
This notion is a bit daft really.. A well build and looked after AJP doesn't expire after 60k.. There were some issues with the original builds, some of which have been overcome with better materials/parts these days. Material technology has moved on 20yrs since these were being built in a shed in Blackpool. Despite this, there are plenty of AJP's out there on their original builds doing the part. One is nearly at 200k now with no rebuild. An AJP is no LS when it comes to withstanding a lack of maintenance, but looked after with good regular oil changes and it will do the business for a long while.
Rather than focus on rebuild costs why not think about real world use?
If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
Wolvesboy said:
Rather than focus on rebuild costs why not think about real world use?
If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
The LS isn't infallible.. I have heard of 2/3 LS swapped TVR's that are on their 2nd engine..If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
Jhonno said:
Wolvesboy said:
Rather than focus on rebuild costs why not think about real world use?
If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
The LS isn't infallible.. I have heard of 2/3 LS swapped TVR's that are on their 2nd engine..If the OP plans to drive the car everyday then the LS is the way to go (reliability, maintenance, availability of parts etc).
However, if the car is relatively unused with the odd track day etc then the choice is the AJP, whatever version, with the 4.7 an obvious better seller in the long run.
But, and this is a big but, AJP parts are not all cheap and cheerful and the ongoing clutch issue, for example, will definitely become a problem over time. Another prime example being throttle pots that are now virtually non existent. If the OP is handy doing his own servicing etc money can be saved but I do baulk at costs of say an AJP 12k service, when the equivalent LS service would be peanuts.
The AJP is a wonderful engine and defines the car (as mine does) but it will go “bang” way before the LS. When mine goes I will have no hesitation in transplanting an LS as it is a proven replacement. A friend of mine has an LS3 Tamora and it is an absolute beast and way faster than my 4.5 AJP. He has zero engine problems with an amazing sound; services it easily and has no worries every time he starts it. He can also tune his for even more power whereas I am relatively stuck with my short induction/ chip - unless I spend further big bucks which is not going to happen for minimal gains.
My intention is not to offend the purists but sometimes there are better options available when an AJP breaks and in 2018 I think the LS3 upwards seems a far better long term proposition.
My 10c.
That, and HOW BL**DY HIGH do the servicing costs on an AJP need to be for an LS conversion (starting at about £18K) to recoup the initial investment... Methinks there's an (un)fair amount of man maths going on to justify going the LS route on a purely financial basis.
For most of us £3K would be a reasonable figure for a yearly maintenance budget on a Cerb. Up to about 12,000 miles (1 minor and 1 major service), the mileage will be of secondary importance as regularly driven cars have, if anything, less issues than garage queens.
However, that's the whole car and apart from the drivetrain, the issues and maintenance points (electrics, chassis, suspension, trim bits, brakes, tyres and consumables) will remain the same. Just say for argument's sake that two thirds of that figure belongs to engine, gearbox and clutch. That's £2K a year. However, your LS powered car will also need one major service a year as a minimum. Make that £600.
I did the sums (but vs. an elaborate S6 build in a Tuscan) and despite planning to do a fair few miles, there's no way I could make the numbers work on that basis.
If you have to have an LS, get an LS. Otherwise, and with my dispassionate, calculating head on, I would think it'd be hard to justify a conversion unless I was doing crazy mileages (in which case I would imagine the rest of the car would suffer unless a much more diligent & detailed maintenance regime was being adhered to. Quite apart of the question whether you'd be up for doing that sort of miles in a handbuilt TVR...
For most of us £3K would be a reasonable figure for a yearly maintenance budget on a Cerb. Up to about 12,000 miles (1 minor and 1 major service), the mileage will be of secondary importance as regularly driven cars have, if anything, less issues than garage queens.
However, that's the whole car and apart from the drivetrain, the issues and maintenance points (electrics, chassis, suspension, trim bits, brakes, tyres and consumables) will remain the same. Just say for argument's sake that two thirds of that figure belongs to engine, gearbox and clutch. That's £2K a year. However, your LS powered car will also need one major service a year as a minimum. Make that £600.
I did the sums (but vs. an elaborate S6 build in a Tuscan) and despite planning to do a fair few miles, there's no way I could make the numbers work on that basis.
If you have to have an LS, get an LS. Otherwise, and with my dispassionate, calculating head on, I would think it'd be hard to justify a conversion unless I was doing crazy mileages (in which case I would imagine the rest of the car would suffer unless a much more diligent & detailed maintenance regime was being adhered to. Quite apart of the question whether you'd be up for doing that sort of miles in a handbuilt TVR...
I am not sure where you get your LS servicing costs from but they are peanuts to service. Mine is about £120 a year, and £90 of that is the oil.
I do all my own servicing and repairs and have a decent workshop. My Ultima is quite heavily modified from standard.
If I go the LS route I will do the convertion myself including making any bespoke parts, including the stainless exhaust and any new glass fibre pieces. I will also repaint the car myself. The only job I refuse to tackle is trimming/interior.
It is possible to get an LS7 to easily produce 650hp reliably and a standard engine with a good exhaust and air intake will make 550+hp.
The rest of the car will need upgrading, but it currently needs a full refurbishment anyway. Therefore most components will need replacement.
Had TVR used an American engine originally (as the new TVR will) they would probably not have gone bust. Owners would also have benefited from much cheaper servicing too.
Having said the above, I am still undecided regarding the engine. AJP4.7 or LS7???
I do all my own servicing and repairs and have a decent workshop. My Ultima is quite heavily modified from standard.
If I go the LS route I will do the convertion myself including making any bespoke parts, including the stainless exhaust and any new glass fibre pieces. I will also repaint the car myself. The only job I refuse to tackle is trimming/interior.
It is possible to get an LS7 to easily produce 650hp reliably and a standard engine with a good exhaust and air intake will make 550+hp.
The rest of the car will need upgrading, but it currently needs a full refurbishment anyway. Therefore most components will need replacement.
Had TVR used an American engine originally (as the new TVR will) they would probably not have gone bust. Owners would also have benefited from much cheaper servicing too.
Having said the above, I am still undecided regarding the engine. AJP4.7 or LS7???
Storer said:
I am not sure where you get your LS servicing costs from but they are peanuts to service. Mine is about £120 a year, and £90 of that is the oil.
I do all my own servicing and repairs
Ah, that's a different ballgame. In that case, keeping an AJP-engined Cerb on the road will cost far less than £3K, too I do all my own servicing and repairs
(Although most of us will spend the money anyway, on upgrades and refurbishment).For the rest of us, £120 is pretty much what we spend the moment we set foot in a workshop.
Jhonno said:
The LS isn't infallible.. I have heard of 2/3 LS swapped TVR's that are on their 2nd engine..
Aren't these the ones who did cost savings by using used engines rather than new crate?For a new LS3 crate engine, gearbox, ancillaries, exhaust etc, realistically you're looking at £25k by the time you've paid a specialist to do the work as well.
Jhonno said:
A and K Cerbera said:
The 4.5 AJP route cons - AJP is a highly stressed engine and will probably need a rebuild in sixty thousand miles time.
This notion is a bit daft really.. A well build and looked after AJP doesn't expire after 60k.. There were some issues with the original builds, some of which have been overcome with better materials/parts these days. Material technology has moved on 20yrs since these were being built in a shed in Blackpool. Despite this, there are plenty of AJP's out there on their original builds doing the part. One is nearly at 200k now with no rebuild. An AJP is no LS when it comes to withstanding a lack of maintenance, but looked after with good regular oil changes and it will do the business for a long while.
Mine would have been cheap to fix the worn valve guides, that was really all that was wrong with mine, but as I've never scrimped on the car, wanted the 3 year warranty, I went with the full work to update the engine to the best spec.
It's probably a different decision if the engine is ruined and can't be saved, but Str8Six have a lot of spare engines in bits sitting on a shelf.
As with all cars, they need to be used regularly, warmed up before thrashing. It amazes me at track days how many people go straight out at full pace.
If I was after lots more reliably power, money no object, I'd go the LS route, but my thoughts were to keep the car original. How much power do you really need? It's already a pretty quick car - in the case of mine, not bad for 21 years old.
But thats why we're all different - viva la choice
Edited by Byker28i on Friday 31st August 08:30
Byker28i said:
Jhonno said:
The LS isn't infallible.. I have heard of 2/3 LS swapped TVR's that are on their 2nd engine..
Aren't these the ones who did cost savings by using used engines rather than new crate?For a new LS3 crate engine, gearbox, ancillaries, exhaust etc, realistically you're looking at £25k by the time you've paid a specialist to do the work as well.
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