Buying a car with Cat D damage
Discussion
Seen a '97 4.2 on Amore Autos site, looks lovely but it's had Cat D damage, apparently the chassis was unscathed.
Also the mileage can't be verified as the speedo stopped working in 2005! Never heard of that on a TVR before(!)
Would I be mad to consider taking this further? The price looks very appealing!
Also do you think it would be difficult to insure?
Also the mileage can't be verified as the speedo stopped working in 2005! Never heard of that on a TVR before(!)
Would I be mad to consider taking this further? The price looks very appealing!
Also do you think it would be difficult to insure?
agreed with PhilF
Cat D is an uneconomical write off without structural damage - usually bodywork only.
My TVR S was a Cat C which did have some structural damage - I repaired and has been fine on the road the last 7 years.
With plenty of photos you can still have a decent 'agreed value' with your insurers.
Cat D is an uneconomical write off without structural damage - usually bodywork only.
My TVR S was a Cat C which did have some structural damage - I repaired and has been fine on the road the last 7 years.
With plenty of photos you can still have a decent 'agreed value' with your insurers.
GT4RS said:
It it’s cheap fine, if it’s more than 10k stay away.
Hard sell these cars
That is an unrealistic quote. The car would be worth over £10k if it was still in a damaged condition so fully repaired and sold with warranty I think it’s a reasonable price. Yes they are worth less when categorised and some people will not want to buy them, but there are many more who will. Most older TVRs will have already had lots of major repairs including chassis repairs due to corrosion repairs due to minor shunts etc etc anyway so your not necessarily getting a worse car, quite often your getting a better one.Hard sell these cars
Just go with you eyes wide open, the guys at Amore will be open and honest and point out the good and bad.
Looks nice to me.
Obviously you'd have to check the usual stuff
but I would definitely go and have a look if I were you (good subjunctive
).
Obviously you'd have to check the usual stuff
but I would definitely go and have a look if I were you (good subjunctive
).Edited by Mr Cerbera on Saturday 23 January 10:21
The Amore description refers to front nearside wing damage only. I know GRP panels and labour are expensive, but it does seem unlikely that one wing replacement could have been so costly that the insurance company preferred to pay out for a write-off on what would have been around a £25000 car at that time.
Amore also say the car is "independently inspected" but don't say by whom. If you are serious about buying it, I recommend asking Amore if they will put it through an Autolign check. My S was on the "at risk" (written off) register when I viewed it. When I spoke with HPI they told me about Autolign, who are authorised by HPI to inspect and certify damaged cars. If it passes their extensive inspection, which includes laser alignment checks on the chassis, HPI will reclassify the car as "condition inspected". This means that insurance companies will regard the vehicle as if it had never been crashed.
https://www.autolign.co.uk/
It isn't cheap at around £250 - 325, but will add at least that to the value and probably more. So if Amore see that you are a serious buyer, they may suck up that cost to achieve a sale, even if you decide not to go ahead. It will mean that you know the entire vehicle has been checked by a known specialist who is fully qualified. Mine was done by an ex Aston-Martin engineer, who was happy to discuss with me afterwards, even though I wasn't the owner at that point. It will also be a much more thorough check than, for example, the RAC advanced check at a similar price. Their team told me years ago that they are only allowed to do a visual inspection and not even prod the chassis to check for rust, in case they cause damage to what isn't your car yet.
Of course, Autolign won't be able to certify the estimated mileage, so that will still be a worry. But perhaps they might be able to offer you an opinion about whether the level of wear & tear matches the claimed 45000.
BOB
Amore also say the car is "independently inspected" but don't say by whom. If you are serious about buying it, I recommend asking Amore if they will put it through an Autolign check. My S was on the "at risk" (written off) register when I viewed it. When I spoke with HPI they told me about Autolign, who are authorised by HPI to inspect and certify damaged cars. If it passes their extensive inspection, which includes laser alignment checks on the chassis, HPI will reclassify the car as "condition inspected". This means that insurance companies will regard the vehicle as if it had never been crashed.
https://www.autolign.co.uk/
It isn't cheap at around £250 - 325, but will add at least that to the value and probably more. So if Amore see that you are a serious buyer, they may suck up that cost to achieve a sale, even if you decide not to go ahead. It will mean that you know the entire vehicle has been checked by a known specialist who is fully qualified. Mine was done by an ex Aston-Martin engineer, who was happy to discuss with me afterwards, even though I wasn't the owner at that point. It will also be a much more thorough check than, for example, the RAC advanced check at a similar price. Their team told me years ago that they are only allowed to do a visual inspection and not even prod the chassis to check for rust, in case they cause damage to what isn't your car yet.
Of course, Autolign won't be able to certify the estimated mileage, so that will still be a worry. But perhaps they might be able to offer you an opinion about whether the level of wear & tear matches the claimed 45000.
BOB
Its not as simple as that as to whether an insurance company will write a vehicle off. For example, if you have a hire care option the cost of the hire car is taken into account. A TVR is fibreglass, which some body shops don't like working on, the front end would probably need respraying, add in possibly replacement front wheel / tyre, new head light etc and costs quickly add up.
I have bought a few cat C / D cars over the years and some have barely had a mark on them. On the other hand, one of my friends went side on into a lampost in his 2 month old Audi S4 and to our surprise the insurance company repaired it - new airbags, seat-belts, front wing, doors, rear quarter, sills, etc etc that took ages to do (no hire car though!). The next owner wont know a thing about it unless he tells them.
I have bought a few cat C / D cars over the years and some have barely had a mark on them. On the other hand, one of my friends went side on into a lampost in his 2 month old Audi S4 and to our surprise the insurance company repaired it - new airbags, seat-belts, front wing, doors, rear quarter, sills, etc etc that took ages to do (no hire car though!). The next owner wont know a thing about it unless he tells them.
Thanks to all for your opinions and advice. It's been very helpful, and I think I should at least go and have a look.
Thanks especially to Bob, the suggestion regarding an Autolign inspection is a good idea I think, and the possible reclassification post inspection would be a right bonus!
Don't know Cerberas at all, I've only ever had Chim 4.5, unfortunately that ended in very drastic fashion (upside-down).
As one or two have hinted, Amore are a good dealer I presume?
Thanks especially to Bob, the suggestion regarding an Autolign inspection is a good idea I think, and the possible reclassification post inspection would be a right bonus!
Don't know Cerberas at all, I've only ever had Chim 4.5, unfortunately that ended in very drastic fashion (upside-down).
As one or two have hinted, Amore are a good dealer I presume?
I've visited Amore a couple of times, good knowledge of models there. Began as enthusiastic owners.
However, many of the cars for sale are customer's on SOR, not owned by Amore. If this is the case for the Cerbera, it's unlikely they would cough up for such a check. The speedometer not working since 2005 is a problem on the MoT history too.
First post by the OP so perhaps not aware odometer failure is far from rare (?!), on several models.
However, many of the cars for sale are customer's on SOR, not owned by Amore. If this is the case for the Cerbera, it's unlikely they would cough up for such a check. The speedometer not working since 2005 is a problem on the MoT history too.
First post by the OP so perhaps not aware odometer failure is far from rare (?!), on several models.
Cat D status, front end hacked around to make it appear a later car, speedo not working for 15 years, and all for nearly 20k? No thanks.
There is a much nicer Chianti Starmist 4.2 on Car & Classic, with no insurance marker noted, at a fraction more.
There is a much nicer Chianti Starmist 4.2 on Car & Classic, with no insurance marker noted, at a fraction more.
Edited by robsco on Saturday 23 January 22:01
People forget that the insurance co will look at the salvage value at the time and compare that with the value and cost of repair, it doesn’t need to be £25k of work to write off a £25k car, if the salvage value was £15k and repair costs over £5k plus expenses such as hire car it is cheaper to write off and get the salvage value back.
sixor8 said:
I've visited Amore a couple of times, good knowledge of models there. Began as enthusiastic owners.
However, many of the cars for sale are customer's on SOR, not owned by Amore. If this is the case for the Cerbera, it's unlikely they would cough up for such a check. The speedometer not working since 2005 is a problem on the MoT history too.
First post by the OP so perhaps not aware odometer failure is far from rare (?!), on several models.
Good point, it never dawned on me that it might be SOR. I am fully aware of the odometer issues, the one on my Chim worked about 50% of the time!However, many of the cars for sale are customer's on SOR, not owned by Amore. If this is the case for the Cerbera, it's unlikely they would cough up for such a check. The speedometer not working since 2005 is a problem on the MoT history too.
First post by the OP so perhaps not aware odometer failure is far from rare (?!), on several models.
robsco said:
Cat D status, front end hacked around to make it appear a later car, speedo not working for 15 years, and all for nearly 20k? No thanks.
There is a much nicer Chianti Starmist 4.2 on Car & Classic, with no insurance marker noted, at a fraction more.
Put it like that, you're right. I think I'm going to save up £5K or so more and will hopefully have a lot more to choose from without having to consider crashed ones!There is a much nicer Chianti Starmist 4.2 on Car & Classic, with no insurance marker noted, at a fraction more.
Edited by robsco on Saturday 23 January 22:01
Your mention about the speedometer not recording mileage was ironic then, my mistake. Being a new PH log in with no car history listed, I wasn't aware.... Perhaps a 
would have helped. 
I have been asked by some insurance companies if a car has ever been written off. Others have never asked.
would have helped. I have been asked by some insurance companies if a car has ever been written off. Others have never asked.
"the engine at the last big service in 2012 had the Cams changed for a used ones (very good condition) by SD Auto Tec. All valve clearance and followers, where needed, were also replaced."
The problem with this car is that as well as ignoring the faulty speedo sensor for fifteen years, the valve clearances were left to close up resulting in the damage to the cams and followers
This is indicative of a significant degree of neglect and deferred maintenance, even if some has been rectified
"The interior is good with just a small tear to the vinyl on the drivers seat at the bottom of the bolster (common issue)."
So only part leather then?
I think you have to assume that it has original hoses, and suspension bushes, all of which will be on their way out
At least the outriggers have been replaced, and there's a six month warranty, but who know what condition the heads and head gaskets are in if the coolant changes have been ignored, which seems likely
The cat D is irrelevant unless you are simply looking to resell
I reckon this car would be a good project, but I'm not sure about that asking price
The problem with this car is that as well as ignoring the faulty speedo sensor for fifteen years, the valve clearances were left to close up resulting in the damage to the cams and followers
This is indicative of a significant degree of neglect and deferred maintenance, even if some has been rectified
"The interior is good with just a small tear to the vinyl on the drivers seat at the bottom of the bolster (common issue)."
So only part leather then?
I think you have to assume that it has original hoses, and suspension bushes, all of which will be on their way out
At least the outriggers have been replaced, and there's a six month warranty, but who know what condition the heads and head gaskets are in if the coolant changes have been ignored, which seems likely
The cat D is irrelevant unless you are simply looking to resell
I reckon this car would be a good project, but I'm not sure about that asking price
JC TVR said:
Thanks to all for your opinions and advice. It's been very helpful, and I think I should at least go and have a look.
Thanks especially to Bob, the suggestion regarding an Autolign inspection is a good idea I think, and the possible reclassification post inspection would be a right bonus!
Don't know Cerberas at all, I've only ever had Chim 4.5, unfortunately that ended in very drastic fashion (upside-down).
As one or two have hinted, Amore are a good dealer I presume?
The gentleman who mentioned Autolign is quite right, it will remove the “Cat D” marker from HPI and it will then state “condition inspected”. It will however, NOT remove the Cat D marker from Experian. You’d be spending hundreds of pounds for nothing. Thanks especially to Bob, the suggestion regarding an Autolign inspection is a good idea I think, and the possible reclassification post inspection would be a right bonus!
Don't know Cerberas at all, I've only ever had Chim 4.5, unfortunately that ended in very drastic fashion (upside-down).
As one or two have hinted, Amore are a good dealer I presume?
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