De-Cats, Exhausts, Whirlwind and Remap options
Discussion
All,
Apologies for adding to a number of recent similar threads but I'm trying to make sense of some potential upgrade options that I'm considering for a 4.5 Cerb. It's a bit long winded but it's a case of putting a few puzzle pieces together to see the bigger picture. I'm hoping Jools might see this too and provide his thoughts (I've tried ringing a couple of times Jools).
The car has the whirlwind induction kit and the ECU plugin that, as far as I'm aware, provides a plug n play remap (excuse my ignorance). I'm asking about this, as I previously had a 4.2 cerb and I wouldn't say there is any noticeable difference in uptake at low revs. I get that 4.5's have different characteristics and power comes in at higher revs but I suppose I'm looking to refine / improve this. Also, I'd like to de-cat, just because I like noise.
First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
Second Question(s) - Exhaust Options:
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
Centre section appears to available in standard or big bore? Again, big bore seems to be beneficial in reducing pressure but I've seen quite a few threads about back pressures and cats in and out etc. Not interested in the complete centre section with backbox.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
I suppose the overarching question is, has anyone got a Whirlwind / K6 emerald / ACT performance Manifold and Big Bore set up and have performance results. In my mind, the increase in price over a stainless replacement of the standard exhaust may be marginal gains at best. I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong or educated on the subject.
Thanks in advance.
Apologies for adding to a number of recent similar threads but I'm trying to make sense of some potential upgrade options that I'm considering for a 4.5 Cerb. It's a bit long winded but it's a case of putting a few puzzle pieces together to see the bigger picture. I'm hoping Jools might see this too and provide his thoughts (I've tried ringing a couple of times Jools).
The car has the whirlwind induction kit and the ECU plugin that, as far as I'm aware, provides a plug n play remap (excuse my ignorance). I'm asking about this, as I previously had a 4.2 cerb and I wouldn't say there is any noticeable difference in uptake at low revs. I get that 4.5's have different characteristics and power comes in at higher revs but I suppose I'm looking to refine / improve this. Also, I'd like to de-cat, just because I like noise.
First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
Second Question(s) - Exhaust Options:
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
Centre section appears to available in standard or big bore? Again, big bore seems to be beneficial in reducing pressure but I've seen quite a few threads about back pressures and cats in and out etc. Not interested in the complete centre section with backbox.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
I suppose the overarching question is, has anyone got a Whirlwind / K6 emerald / ACT performance Manifold and Big Bore set up and have performance results. In my mind, the increase in price over a stainless replacement of the standard exhaust may be marginal gains at best. I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong or educated on the subject.
Thanks in advance.
Ri Orus2 said:
All,
First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
I got the Emerald K6 from Jools. You'll need a rolling road tune when fitting the K6. The advantages are dual wideband lambdas so you can target AFRs other than 14.7:1 to smooth up any areas of poor running, the ability to have 3 maps doing different things, eg an MOT friendly map, a normal map and one with lots of pops & bangs. Mapping is cheaper too and the ECU is obviously replaceable. An MBE remap is comparatively expensive. Prices on Jools' website are around £700 I think, and if it breaks the 941 often can't be fixed so you either need to be lucky and find someone selling one, or you've wasted the £700 on mapping it and you'll be in to an ECU swap anyway. As I was the guinea pig for the wideband version of the K6 I got a good deal from Jools and, by making the wiring loom up and doing the ECU fit myself, plus selling my old MBE 941 I don't think I spent much more than an MBE remap.First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
Power wise I've got no idea as it went on a freshly rebuilt 4.7 so I don't have a before & after comparison. Don't see how it'll affect top end power though.
Ri Orus2 said:
Second Question(s) - Exhaust Options:
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
I've got the performance manifolds. Again they went on with the rebuilt engine so no before/after. Be prepared for a lot of faff fitting them and getting them to sit right without hitting the gearbox if my experience is anything to go by. The sectioning isn't that well designed either, particularly on the passenger side, and the studs are made of cheese. I've replaced a lot of mine with bolts. I was thankful though when I replaced the PAS pump with the engine in. I don't see how it's possible to remove the old pump with the offside exhaust manifold on so it was nice to be able to remove 1 small section rather than unbolt the whole lot from the heads. Given the cost and faff to fit I hope someone can prove the performance gains were worth it!
Ri Orus2 said:
Centre section appears to available in standard or big bore? Again, big bore seems to be beneficial in reducing pressure but I've seen quite a few threads about back pressures and cats in and out etc. Not interested in the complete centre section with backbox.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
If you're going decat big bore and sports tails I hope you like being deaf! ACT make silenced decat pipes, maybe worth a chat with them.
I have the performance manifolds on my 4.2 which made 360bhp recently where as the accepted figure for a 4.2 without the manifolds seems to be around 345bhp.
I fitted it after reading all the horror stories. It didn't go on the way you would expect an OEM part to fit but if you have modified cars before this won't come as much of a surprise. I have put a spacer between the manifold outlets to keep them apart and off the gearbox. After a couple of years of use I had the exhaust off again and the manifolds have relaxed into the right position a bit more now. Also you should check that the flanges are flat and square.
All in all it wasn't a perfect fit but also wasn't that far away. Made changing the gearbox much easier and gained some power (and noise).
I fitted it after reading all the horror stories. It didn't go on the way you would expect an OEM part to fit but if you have modified cars before this won't come as much of a surprise. I have put a spacer between the manifold outlets to keep them apart and off the gearbox. After a couple of years of use I had the exhaust off again and the manifolds have relaxed into the right position a bit more now. Also you should check that the flanges are flat and square.
All in all it wasn't a perfect fit but also wasn't that far away. Made changing the gearbox much easier and gained some power (and noise).
CerbWill said:
Ri Orus2 said:
All,
First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
I got the Emerald K6 from Jools. You'll need a rolling road tune when fitting the K6. The advantages are dual wideband lambdas so you can target AFRs other than 14.7:1 to smooth up any areas of poor running, the ability to have 3 maps doing different things, eg an MOT friendly map, a normal map and one with lots of pops & bangs. Mapping is cheaper too and the ECU is obviously replaceable. An MBE remap is comparatively expensive. Prices on Jools' website are around £700 I think, and if it breaks the 941 often can't be fixed so you either need to be lucky and find someone selling one, or you've wasted the £700 on mapping it and you'll be in to an ECU swap anyway. As I was the guinea pig for the wideband version of the K6 I got a good deal from Jools and, by making the wiring loom up and doing the ECU fit myself, plus selling my old MBE 941 I don't think I spent much more than an MBE remap.First question - Tuning and ECU:
I'm hoping a tune would help the low rev power and throttle response, so I'm trying to understand the benefits for and against a rolling road session with a remap of the ECU, or a straight swap out for the K6 Emerald. I'd be looking to get it to jools at some point for either of these options but I'm not sure of the pros and cons of each and also, to understand costs. I imagine discussing the latter may be sensitive on the forums or against rules, so happy to accept PM's.
Power wise I've got no idea as it went on a freshly rebuilt 4.7 so I don't have a before & after comparison. Don't see how it'll affect top end power though.
Ri Orus2 said:
Second Question(s) - Exhaust Options:
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
I've narrowed it down to ACT but there are a few options available there it seems.
Exhaust manifold options being standard in stainless or equal length performance. Is there any real benefit for going performance? particularly as they aren't too far off twice the price of the standard.
I've got the performance manifolds. Again they went on with the rebuilt engine so no before/after. Be prepared for a lot of faff fitting them and getting them to sit right without hitting the gearbox if my experience is anything to go by. The sectioning isn't that well designed either, particularly on the passenger side, and the studs are made of cheese. I've replaced a lot of mine with bolts. I was thankful though when I replaced the PAS pump with the engine in. I don't see how it's possible to remove the old pump with the offside exhaust manifold on so it was nice to be able to remove 1 small section rather than unbolt the whole lot from the heads. Given the cost and faff to fit I hope someone can prove the performance gains were worth it!
Ri Orus2 said:
Centre section appears to available in standard or big bore? Again, big bore seems to be beneficial in reducing pressure but I've seen quite a few threads about back pressures and cats in and out etc. Not interested in the complete centre section with backbox.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
Lastly, in the meantime I'm going to pick up straight through de-cats but I assume these are a standard size irrespective of whether I go with a standard or big bore centre and tails eventually. OR, would ACT make big bore decat pipes to suit their big bore system.
If you're going decat big bore and sports tails I hope you like being deaf! ACT make silenced decat pipes, maybe worth a chat with them.
Imran, yes I'll be on the call. You can fit an Emerald K6 to the existing loom with an adaptor Emerald supply but that limits functionality to narrowband lambdas and (I think) 1 throttle pot input. The wideband setup involves 2 controllers (AEM 30-0300 as recommended by Jools) which feed AFR info to the ECU by a 0-5v analog output so you need to alter the wiring for that. The new version of the K6 also does semi-sequential injection and if you want to take advantage of that the wiring to the fuel injectors needs changing. After that it's only coil packs and the odd sensor left so it seemed sensible to go for a full new loom. The instructions from Emerald and the help by phone or email from Jools was first class so getting the wiring done is pretty straightforward but there is a lot of it so sketching out a few plans before you start, approaching it in a logical order and ensuring you've labeled up each wire so you can identify it helps. The hardest bit isnt the stuff going from the ECU to the engine bay, its probably figuring out what TVR have done with the wirign from the car to the ECU for power, a/c control etc.
Hi sorry for late replies it's been back to back ecu mapping recently ..
William has covered much of the details so not much for me to add ..
yes you can do the K6 on the adaptor loom but that then runs 2xbanked injection as std .. if you ran the k6+ with the adaptor you can still have dual throttle inputs but the emerald like many aftermarket ecus can't read titania lambdas so you're looking at lambda changes to either zirconia narrowband (k6 single lambda, or k6+ dual narrowband lambda) or better still K6+ dual widebands. K6 can run a single wideband and single adaptive trim map.
I run an earlier k3 on both my cerbera and tuscan and run single throttle sensor with single wideband. Good but not perfect.
k6+ with dual inputs for both is best. You get twin adaptive fuel maps .. the emerald adaptive learning is so good i use it to map the fuelling on the cars on the dyno so i only have to concentrate on the ignition side of things, the ecu sorts the fuelling out for me!
Best thing is just like the chim/griff installs .. get rid of the old wiring and make a new loom ..
for costs you would get a K6+ installed and mapped with triple maps and dual widebands for around 2500 pounds by giving your good working mbe ecu in part exchange.
A very basic K6 install with adaptor could be as low as 1100 but you'd not have any lambda feedback. Add 250 for a single wideband fitted and set up.
Exhausts .. if you're up to 400hp then the 2.25in std 4.5 exhaust is fine as long as you don't have crush bends .. full bore bends are best as the ajp8 seems very sensitive to back pressure .. any back pressure at all saps power. Ove 400hp then the 2.5 in bore becomes beneficial. Even better is my merged decats - best on the market for flow because I designed them to be so after testing lots of options. Only useful if over 400hp in place of std decats which are fine for 400hp engines. Second best is H pipe. Worst is a conventional X pipe.
I've tested lots of exhaust manifolds over the years too .. the best seem to be the through-inner-wing jobs on Mike Saunders' race car .. not practical for many road cars though .. in truth even though the internals of the OE manifolds look absolutely dreadful, they perform really well. Just make sure you have the later larger bore versions not the very early small bore 4.2 versions (though to be fair there can't be many of those left any more) .
If you are really chasing power then you need :
ecu, large bore exhaust, merged X pipe, thinned throttle spindles, reset cam timing, short induction, air filter casing mod, breather mod .. 430hp is then possible (your mileage may vary etc etc). When you consider that a good std 4.5 would be around 350hp that's pretty good going! You've probably spent the best part of say 4 grand doing all that though.
Anything else you need to know just ask.
William has covered much of the details so not much for me to add ..
yes you can do the K6 on the adaptor loom but that then runs 2xbanked injection as std .. if you ran the k6+ with the adaptor you can still have dual throttle inputs but the emerald like many aftermarket ecus can't read titania lambdas so you're looking at lambda changes to either zirconia narrowband (k6 single lambda, or k6+ dual narrowband lambda) or better still K6+ dual widebands. K6 can run a single wideband and single adaptive trim map.
I run an earlier k3 on both my cerbera and tuscan and run single throttle sensor with single wideband. Good but not perfect.
k6+ with dual inputs for both is best. You get twin adaptive fuel maps .. the emerald adaptive learning is so good i use it to map the fuelling on the cars on the dyno so i only have to concentrate on the ignition side of things, the ecu sorts the fuelling out for me!
Best thing is just like the chim/griff installs .. get rid of the old wiring and make a new loom ..
for costs you would get a K6+ installed and mapped with triple maps and dual widebands for around 2500 pounds by giving your good working mbe ecu in part exchange.
A very basic K6 install with adaptor could be as low as 1100 but you'd not have any lambda feedback. Add 250 for a single wideband fitted and set up.
Exhausts .. if you're up to 400hp then the 2.25in std 4.5 exhaust is fine as long as you don't have crush bends .. full bore bends are best as the ajp8 seems very sensitive to back pressure .. any back pressure at all saps power. Ove 400hp then the 2.5 in bore becomes beneficial. Even better is my merged decats - best on the market for flow because I designed them to be so after testing lots of options. Only useful if over 400hp in place of std decats which are fine for 400hp engines. Second best is H pipe. Worst is a conventional X pipe.
I've tested lots of exhaust manifolds over the years too .. the best seem to be the through-inner-wing jobs on Mike Saunders' race car .. not practical for many road cars though .. in truth even though the internals of the OE manifolds look absolutely dreadful, they perform really well. Just make sure you have the later larger bore versions not the very early small bore 4.2 versions (though to be fair there can't be many of those left any more) .
If you are really chasing power then you need :
ecu, large bore exhaust, merged X pipe, thinned throttle spindles, reset cam timing, short induction, air filter casing mod, breather mod .. 430hp is then possible (your mileage may vary etc etc). When you consider that a good std 4.5 would be around 350hp that's pretty good going! You've probably spent the best part of say 4 grand doing all that though.
Anything else you need to know just ask.
My 4.2 has the early ACT tuned length manifolds and the small bore, quiet ACT system decatted.
It's had the Jools mapping, and magic treatment of inlet work and throttle spindles etc, all done back in 2008, and was making 343bhp before, 380 after. Now 370 after a recent full engine rebuild.
Best bit is the mapping, it makes the car driveable from 2000 revs, before it was all over 3000, which makes it a very easy car to drive now which is what I was after rather than out and out figures.
The mapping initially took it from 343 to 363 with cracked exhaust manifolds that were robbing power, hence the ACT ones, which were all that was available as an alternative at the time. 380 after they were replaced. Conservatively they are worth about 10bhp. Decatting I don't think increases power, but does increase noise, in the order of 8-10db with my testing.
As said all been on since 2008 and still working and looking fine
It's had the Jools mapping, and magic treatment of inlet work and throttle spindles etc, all done back in 2008, and was making 343bhp before, 380 after. Now 370 after a recent full engine rebuild.
Best bit is the mapping, it makes the car driveable from 2000 revs, before it was all over 3000, which makes it a very easy car to drive now which is what I was after rather than out and out figures.
The mapping initially took it from 343 to 363 with cracked exhaust manifolds that were robbing power, hence the ACT ones, which were all that was available as an alternative at the time. 380 after they were replaced. Conservatively they are worth about 10bhp. Decatting I don't think increases power, but does increase noise, in the order of 8-10db with my testing.
As said all been on since 2008 and still working and looking fine
Edited by Byker28i on Friday 26th March 15:24
Another recommendation for Jools:
Had the Whirlwind Induction hoses & 'Cool' chip fitted with a remap & new Thermostat.
Same, standard exhaust and increased from 326 to 388 bhp - that's 20% for £800 !!
The smoothness on the Graph only hints at the complete change in power characteristics that the engine now delivers.
So much more usuable, in practical circumstances, (even though she's 5mph less at the end of the Kemmel straight)
The best money I ever spent on her !
Had the Whirlwind Induction hoses & 'Cool' chip fitted with a remap & new Thermostat.
Same, standard exhaust and increased from 326 to 388 bhp - that's 20% for £800 !!
The smoothness on the Graph only hints at the complete change in power characteristics that the engine now delivers.
So much more usuable, in practical circumstances, (even though she's 5mph less at the end of the Kemmel straight)
The best money I ever spent on her !
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff