rear wing for track days
Discussion
I'm looking to possibly fit a rear wing to the Cerbera. I just want to try and get some more rear grip on the track. id like either a removable one or I'm happy to purchase a second hand boot lid and fit it to that for the odd track day.
I know the racing cerb has one and he says it makes a massive difference to his car so I just wondered has anyone got any recommendations and do's and don'ts.
or educated opinions on if it will even work on an otherwise standard body shell
I would go with the best tyres you can get, make sure it has a working lsd and invest in the best dampers you can afford and a good geo setup. Often training with a good instructor can find much more time than bolt ons.
I used to track my cerb and it had the hydra track diff, it never really struggled for traction. I suspect the racer needs more down force to help the slicks.
I used to track my cerb and it had the hydra track diff, it never really struggled for traction. I suspect the racer needs more down force to help the slicks.
Yes I’d agree with all of your suggestions thanks.
The car already has a new Quaiff ATB, Nitron racing suspension and Avon ZZR track tyres. For the road and spirited driving it is brilliant. If you push hard on a track then rear grip definitely becomes an issue.
Maybe I’m wrong but from my experience such a light car with so much power would surely benefit from a well designed rear wing.
IMO it needs more rear downforce so the power available can be used. The car will oversteer with very little prover-cation
The car already has a new Quaiff ATB, Nitron racing suspension and Avon ZZR track tyres. For the road and spirited driving it is brilliant. If you push hard on a track then rear grip definitely becomes an issue.
Maybe I’m wrong but from my experience such a light car with so much power would surely benefit from a well designed rear wing.
IMO it needs more rear downforce so the power available can be used. The car will oversteer with very little prover-cation
I had 400 bhp and 470 torque in my chim and never wanted for more tractional at dozens of TD's.
Maybe try Toyo Triple 8's, they give reputedly the best grip otherwise as said.
Suspension may be too stiff and damping settings wrong causing less tyre contact.
At the TVRCC TD at Cadwell a couple of weeks ago, there were plenty of cerbs and I would say that there wasn't any traction problems at speed.
Maybe try Toyo Triple 8's, they give reputedly the best grip otherwise as said.
Suspension may be too stiff and damping settings wrong causing less tyre contact.
At the TVRCC TD at Cadwell a couple of weeks ago, there were plenty of cerbs and I would say that there wasn't any traction problems at speed.
Kawasicki said:
Is the car exhibiting a pattern of less rear grip as speed increases?
Or does it also have insufficient rear grip in slow corners?
I'm not an aero expert, but I've done aero testing on normal road cars.
The op car does sound pretty well sorted but you raise a good point, what speed would aero come in to affect, I am assuming 70-100 mph + Or does it also have insufficient rear grip in slow corners?
I'm not an aero expert, but I've done aero testing on normal road cars.
Kawasicki said:
Is the car exhibiting a pattern of less rear grip as speed increases?
Or does it also have insufficient rear grip in slow corners?
I'm not an aero expert, but I've done aero testing on normal road cars.
I don't think there is any lift at higher speeds but I stick by what I am saying that there is not enough grip through a corner especially on exit.Or does it also have insufficient rear grip in slow corners?
I'm not an aero expert, but I've done aero testing on normal road cars.
The limiting factor seems to be just basic grip.
The car was set up by Nitron is almost 50/50 split, it does handle well and drives beautifully but with the power and torque available from this engine you have to be soooo very careful with the throttle otherwise the traction will break.
I can remember a "Top Gear" episode when they tested a supercar (not sure which) and the Stig just could not keep the car on the track. The car was then fitted with a large rear wing and which transformed the handling and it was super quick around the track.
It is very very quick on a track but just like everyone else I'm looking to improve my times and performance so hence me asking about a rear wing.
a1rak said:
I can remember a "Top Gear" episode when they tested a supercar (not sure which) and the Stig just could not keep the car on the track. The car was then fitted with a large rear wing and which transformed the handling and it was super quick around the track.
Koenigsegg CCXNo Wing
with wing
It is never so simple as just fitting a rear wing. The black art of aero usually needs a balance front and rear otherwise you will end up understeering because the rear is being compressed which lifts the nose. I tried it on my Esprit, took the wing off and back to normal.
Of course you’ll get wheelspin with so much hp, 570? you’ll just have to control it with your right foot and a good lsd.
Of course you’ll get wheelspin with so much hp, 570? you’ll just have to control it with your right foot and a good lsd.
Not sure if this will help, but I have been following this thread with interest, as this Cayman has been developed for the track from a road car and is going well in the races in which it competes:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Here are some pics of his aero in case it helps. I am fairly sure his BHP/torque will be well below yours, but clearly the aero makes a substantial difference.
You need to talk to someone who races. Mat Smith races a 4.8 Chimaera successfully, and I seem to remember him trying a wing for more down force at the rear. He is a TVR specialist too and can be reached on 01366 386004. He loves talking racing, so allow a good half hour......
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Here are some pics of his aero in case it helps. I am fairly sure his BHP/torque will be well below yours, but clearly the aero makes a substantial difference.
You need to talk to someone who races. Mat Smith races a 4.8 Chimaera successfully, and I seem to remember him trying a wing for more down force at the rear. He is a TVR specialist too and can be reached on 01366 386004. He loves talking racing, so allow a good half hour......
a1rak said:
I can remember a "Top Gear" episode when they tested a supercar (not sure which) and the Stig just could not keep the car on the track. The car was then fitted with a large rear wing and which transformed the handling and it was super quick around the track.
Another take on the CCX rear wing and top gear:https://davidnaylor.org/blog/2006/06/top-gear-koen...
My thoughts are that for a track day car if you can make changes and improve the car without adding rear aero it would be better.
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
itsallyellow said:
My thoughts are that for a track day car if you can make changes and improve the car without adding rear aero it would be better.
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it would handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it would handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
itsallyellow said:
My thoughts are that for a track day car if you can make changes and improve the car without adding rear aero it would be better.
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
I did wonder that as the bootlid and boot floor did not seem all that robust on mine, I was trying to remember where the chassis ended to think if the wing could attach to that but would make the whole boot useless which is fine on a race car but might be annoying on a track day car.Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
itsallyellow said:
My thoughts are that for a track day car if you can make changes and improve the car without adding rear aero it would be better.
Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
Hi mike, I was hoping you might join the discussion.Do you still have the rear ARB connected? What spring rates do you have.
The interesting thing is that the Cerb is more prone to understeer than oversteer in my experience. Sounds like you may want to stiffen the front up.
My aero makes a huge difference, however it is all about balance. If I put my rear wing on a standard car it wouldn’t handle terribly, understeer everywhere.
We run the same size tyre front and back and have chucked as much front aero at the car as possible.
Also I would say that if a rear wing actually produced significant downforce you wouldn’t want it attached to the boot. Ours goes through a frame that attaches to the floor that is all reinforced with honeycomb aluminium panels, the rear body work still flexes slightly at high speed.
Mike
I'll check on the rear ARB, I presume you are advising disconnecting It or at least trying that.
I will have to look at my paperwork as I cannot remember the spring rates as the Nitrons were set up a few years ago now. I know I asked a lot of questions both on this forum and at Nitron as to what spring rate was ideal for the car and the way Intended to use it.
I definitely don't have understeer with the set up I have. It is just easy to provoke the rear.
I was at Thruxton last week which I'm sure you know is a fantastic fast circuit with a perfect surface and a hot day. The Cerb was the quickest car on the track by some margin so I'm not saying the handling is bad, in fact it is very good. I just thought that a wing might be worth trying so that I can get on the throttle earlier and harder leaving a corner.
Maybe I'm expecting too much. Its always worth asking peoples opinions and advise on this forum.
You just mentioned getting on the throttle earlier and harder in a corner. I would say that at that speed mid corner a wing wouldn’t come into effect. It is probably down to the fact that you develop so much torque and a delicate right foot is called for.
I used to have this problem in my 5.5 Chim. That developed 450 torques and even with the usual Triple 8’s The throttle had to be squeezed gingerly exiting corners until the car was settled.
I used to have this problem in my 5.5 Chim. That developed 450 torques and even with the usual Triple 8’s The throttle had to be squeezed gingerly exiting corners until the car was settled.
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