Super charger - Turbo charger
Discussion
What exactly is a super charger, and whats different about it from a turbo charger.
SXS said yesterday that to supercharge a cerb would cost 8-10k :yikes:
Why?? Admitedly, I know nothing about these things. Very little anyway. But I thought you could buy a super charger for a few hundred quid (V8Smith bought one for £100 - admitted it wasnt any good)
Whats involved in setting both items up? I was actually thinking about it this weekend, and guessed if you could buy a turbo charger for several hundred quid, labour to set it up shouldnt be much more again. I know, my neck is on the block, be gentle. But why so much money? Whats involved, which is better, and does anyone else here actually have one?
SXS said yesterday that to supercharge a cerb would cost 8-10k :yikes:
Why?? Admitedly, I know nothing about these things. Very little anyway. But I thought you could buy a super charger for a few hundred quid (V8Smith bought one for £100 - admitted it wasnt any good)
Whats involved in setting both items up? I was actually thinking about it this weekend, and guessed if you could buy a turbo charger for several hundred quid, labour to set it up shouldnt be much more again. I know, my neck is on the block, be gentle. But why so much money? Whats involved, which is better, and does anyone else here actually have one?
There is the 'manual' way, and Pete spent a bloody long time getting his up and running and he is still working on it to this day to run better. The manual way is cheaper in outlay costs, but if you have the time and the patience and the tools, then you can save a packet and a half, the other thing is, Petes blower is a roots type, an Eaton M42 I believe, which directly sits ontop of the engine.
There are many types of blowers, from roots to screw to Centrifugals to the new Lysholms(wrong spelling) as used by the SLR.
Turbocharging is easy if the bits are available off the shelves, like turbo manifolds and intakes etc.
But the problem with the Cerbera is the clearance, and the glassfibre. She already runs like an oven, imagine a nuclear reactor with turbos... exactly. You could move the turbos further up ahead, but then their efficiency drops and lag increases. Turbocharging would be a very expensive engineering/design project, but if done right can be very good. Turbocharging a Cerbera will cost around 15k easily, just have a word with the turbo griffith owner, his costs went over 25k.
Supercharging is a lot simpler, but again, as there are no aftermarket bits, you will have to get custom brackets, piping, intercooling etc etc to get it to work. Most of the cost is labour, and you will be looking at around 8-10k, the only way you can do it cheaper, is if its an off the shelf bolt-on kit, and they just dont exist for the cerbies. Also remember, the front pully setup would have to be altered to support a blower of any kind, and again this requires some hefty custom/design work.
Either way, you are looking at engine removal and re-fitting costs, and those who have had rebuilds have seen the costs for simply taking a whole engine out and putting it in again are.
Now regardless of what route you take, the following would need to be upgraded:
* New Injectors
* New throttlebody setup
* New Intake Plenum
* New gaskets for intake plenum
* New Fuel pump or additional pump
* Intercooler or chargecooler for more efficiency (reduces ITs)
* New Throttle linkage
* Remapped ECU or replacement ECU recommended
* SC: New Intake plumbing for blower and also bypass
valve
* TC: New Intake plumbing for turbo and also plumbing for wastegate
* Upgraded Radiator (by moving from atmospheric 14.7:1 to FI levels of pressure, the engine will be producing more heat)
* New radiator plumbing, the existing pipes are a blue-peter mess!!!!
* The headers will definitely need upgrading for any decent psi gains, the stock ones are designed for NA application, FI headers are a different setup, the last thing you want is backpressure in an FI setup, otherwise bye-bye rings, gaskets, valves, you get the picture.
* Also the exhaust system might need modification.
* Ignition system will need upgrading, by increasing pressure, a more powerful ignition system is recommended, otherwise... ouch.
* TC: A new cooling system too keep the turbos cool and vent the air freely.
* TC: Headers will require some form of encasing, their temps will be much higher than NA form, and the heat will need to be vented accordingly, otherwise, you've seen the pics of melted cerbs!
* New fuel rails
* New fuel line plumbing
* Extra bits and bobs...
* Sundries...
And then...
finally
mapping, tuning, mapping, tuning, which can take a while unless you went for an aftermarket ECU with a closed loop self-learn mapping facility etc., or if the builder is well-accustomed with the ECU you will use.
and then
ADD OVERALL LABOUR TOO!!!!
Now the above will work for a low-mid boost setup, and some things can be done on the cheap by ignoring them, but then you are walking into no-mans land where you wont know the problems until after a simple trackday and all hell brakes loose!
Or...
You could have the whole engine redeveloped, stroked, the whole drivetrain upgraded, body modified, everything ripped out bar the interior, chassis modified... the works... and spent a gazzillion quid, I know someone whos done that, what a idiot!
Laters.
There are many types of blowers, from roots to screw to Centrifugals to the new Lysholms(wrong spelling) as used by the SLR.
Turbocharging is easy if the bits are available off the shelves, like turbo manifolds and intakes etc.
But the problem with the Cerbera is the clearance, and the glassfibre. She already runs like an oven, imagine a nuclear reactor with turbos... exactly. You could move the turbos further up ahead, but then their efficiency drops and lag increases. Turbocharging would be a very expensive engineering/design project, but if done right can be very good. Turbocharging a Cerbera will cost around 15k easily, just have a word with the turbo griffith owner, his costs went over 25k.
Supercharging is a lot simpler, but again, as there are no aftermarket bits, you will have to get custom brackets, piping, intercooling etc etc to get it to work. Most of the cost is labour, and you will be looking at around 8-10k, the only way you can do it cheaper, is if its an off the shelf bolt-on kit, and they just dont exist for the cerbies. Also remember, the front pully setup would have to be altered to support a blower of any kind, and again this requires some hefty custom/design work.
Either way, you are looking at engine removal and re-fitting costs, and those who have had rebuilds have seen the costs for simply taking a whole engine out and putting it in again are.
Now regardless of what route you take, the following would need to be upgraded:
* New Injectors
* New throttlebody setup
* New Intake Plenum
* New gaskets for intake plenum
* New Fuel pump or additional pump
* Intercooler or chargecooler for more efficiency (reduces ITs)
* New Throttle linkage
* Remapped ECU or replacement ECU recommended
* SC: New Intake plumbing for blower and also bypass
valve
* TC: New Intake plumbing for turbo and also plumbing for wastegate
* Upgraded Radiator (by moving from atmospheric 14.7:1 to FI levels of pressure, the engine will be producing more heat)
* New radiator plumbing, the existing pipes are a blue-peter mess!!!!
* The headers will definitely need upgrading for any decent psi gains, the stock ones are designed for NA application, FI headers are a different setup, the last thing you want is backpressure in an FI setup, otherwise bye-bye rings, gaskets, valves, you get the picture.
* Also the exhaust system might need modification.
* Ignition system will need upgrading, by increasing pressure, a more powerful ignition system is recommended, otherwise... ouch.
* TC: A new cooling system too keep the turbos cool and vent the air freely.
* TC: Headers will require some form of encasing, their temps will be much higher than NA form, and the heat will need to be vented accordingly, otherwise, you've seen the pics of melted cerbs!
* New fuel rails
* New fuel line plumbing
* Extra bits and bobs...
* Sundries...
And then...
finally
mapping, tuning, mapping, tuning, which can take a while unless you went for an aftermarket ECU with a closed loop self-learn mapping facility etc., or if the builder is well-accustomed with the ECU you will use.
and then
ADD OVERALL LABOUR TOO!!!!
Now the above will work for a low-mid boost setup, and some things can be done on the cheap by ignoring them, but then you are walking into no-mans land where you wont know the problems until after a simple trackday and all hell brakes loose!
Or...
You could have the whole engine redeveloped, stroked, the whole drivetrain upgraded, body modified, everything ripped out bar the interior, chassis modified... the works... and spent a gazzillion quid, I know someone whos done that, what a idiot!
Laters.
longbow said:
So someone bloody get over to Belgium and buy the one on PH for 13k!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then have the bits copied and then sell a bespoke Cerbie supercharger kit!!!!
Trouble is no ones knows or has proof that the kit works. Also why has the guy reduced his price from 35K euros to 13K?
TVR Power are tinkering away with FA and the RV8.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=208934
Just seen some news regarding FA and the SP6 (thanks to SXS again).
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=189363&f=152&h=0&p=19
>> Edited by RIchardD on Tuesday 4th October 13:02
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=208934
Just seen some news regarding FA and the SP6 (thanks to SXS again
). www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=189363&f=152&h=0&p=19
>> Edited by RIchardD on Tuesday 4th October 13:02
That euro cerb is a good buy for someone who wants a cerbie with a little more umph, but that price has dropped considerably since last time, I would be thinking along the lines of 'what if'....
And remember, that engine IS stock! But if someone bought it for say 13k, and then dropped it off at my guys down at Craft, toss in 5kish, and get an engine overhaul... I think someone would have a deal and a half on their hands... if memory serves me rightly, this car had over 20k spent on it!
And remember, that engine IS stock! But if someone bought it for say 13k, and then dropped it off at my guys down at Craft, toss in 5kish, and get an engine overhaul... I think someone would have a deal and a half on their hands... if memory serves me rightly, this car had over 20k spent on it!
Ok, just spoke to Craft, and thanks to me, I've got them to come up with a decent price.
* An increase of upto 200bhp and 150lb/ft on the V8's
* Warranty Inclusive
* Drive-in-drive out = £5495 + VAT.
If you were to already require a rebuild, then a package deal can be arranged.
If they were to get say 5 interested parties, they can work a better price margin too. So stop throwing a thou here and there on pesky induction and remap jobs, go for the real deal for a couple of thou more.
Contact them on www.tvrcraft.com
Who says I dont look after me fellow tivvers!
>> Edited by SXS on Tuesday 4th October 13:35
* An increase of upto 200bhp and 150lb/ft on the V8's
* Warranty Inclusive
* Drive-in-drive out = £5495 + VAT.
If you were to already require a rebuild, then a package deal can be arranged.
If they were to get say 5 interested parties, they can work a better price margin too. So stop throwing a thou here and there on pesky induction and remap jobs, go for the real deal for a couple of thou more.
Contact them on www.tvrcraft.com
Who says I dont look after me fellow tivvers!
>> Edited by SXS on Tuesday 4th October 13:35
SXS said:
Ok, just spoke to Craft, and thanks to me, I've got them to come up with a decent price.
* An increase of upto 200bhp and 150lb/ft on the V8's
* Warranty Inclusive
* Drive-in-drive out = £5495 + VAT.
If you were to already require a rebuild, then a package deal can be arranged.
If they were to get say 5 interested parties, they can work a better price margin too. So stop throwing a thou here and there on pesky induction and remap jobs, go for the real deal for a couple of thou more.
Contact them on www.tvrcraft.com
Who says I dont look after me fellow tivvers!
>> Edited by SXS on Tuesday 4th October 13:35
Christ, its going up £500 every 10 mins, get in there quick guys!
UKBob said:Are you Serious? a few 100 quid - ASH is doing his properly and it will be ALOT mor ethan that on his but his is not just a blower. If you did it wrong - well there would not be much left of the AJP!
What exactly is a super charger, and whats different about it from a turbo charger.
SXS said yesterday that to supercharge a cerb would cost 8-10k
Why?? Admitedly, I know nothing about these things. Very little anyway. But I thought you could buy a super charger for a few hundred quid (V8Smith bought one for £100 - admitted it wasnt any good)
Whats involved in setting both items up? I was actually thinking about it this weekend, and guessed if you could buy a turbo charger for several hundred quid, labour to set it up shouldnt be much more again. I know, my neck is on the block, be gentle. But why so much money? Whats involved, which is better, and does anyone else here actually have one?
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