Discussion
I think we should have less girly talk on this forum, apart from the ladies who, of course must talk girly.
Less converstations about how pretty the colour of your cerb is, or what new carbon bits to sticky tape on your car from the carlos fandango emporium of the vain and glittery.
So in an attempt to get this forum back on track and a little more manly than discussing who else you can get to fix your car for you in the event of a problem, I give you one of my manly problems.
Problem is this. I have nitrons and very slowly I have been changing them to suit my driving style. However in an attempt to find the perfect drift going round a corner I have now progressively reduced the damping on the rear wheels to zero while still having the front so stiff that jumping on the front wheel virtually doesn't move the car, while jumping on the back gives rise to an osscillation that can still be seen after ten minutes.
So do I take the ARB off.
Less converstations about how pretty the colour of your cerb is, or what new carbon bits to sticky tape on your car from the carlos fandango emporium of the vain and glittery.
So in an attempt to get this forum back on track and a little more manly than discussing who else you can get to fix your car for you in the event of a problem, I give you one of my manly problems.
Problem is this. I have nitrons and very slowly I have been changing them to suit my driving style. However in an attempt to find the perfect drift going round a corner I have now progressively reduced the damping on the rear wheels to zero while still having the front so stiff that jumping on the front wheel virtually doesn't move the car, while jumping on the back gives rise to an osscillation that can still be seen after ten minutes.
So do I take the ARB off.
What exactly are you trying to achieve? Are we talking relatively low speed e.g. roundabouts / hairpins? or faster corners. On track I wind the front up stiff to minimise understeer in slow corners. Once the fronts hooked up the drifting part should be much easier.
Must admit I'm not a fan of excessively softening the rears though. I found on mine that I lost complete control over the springs at high speed, on B roads it was a liability, undrievable and downright dangerous.
I run the rear of the car about 10 clicks from soft and front about 5 clicks from hard. I prefer to keep the ARB. The car isn't set-up for drifting but it's fun to get it sideways.
Ceejay
Must admit I'm not a fan of excessively softening the rears though. I found on mine that I lost complete control over the springs at high speed, on B roads it was a liability, undrievable and downright dangerous.
I run the rear of the car about 10 clicks from soft and front about 5 clicks from hard. I prefer to keep the ARB. The car isn't set-up for drifting but it's fun to get it sideways.
Ceejay
Julian64 said:
So do I take the ARB off.
{Not The Nine O'clock News}Julian, I've worked with these kids..so the only answer is, cut their ARBs off{Not The Nine O'clock News}
My ARB is propping up a shelf in the garage, post Joospeed [RIP] fettling.
I've found this gives you slightly more understeer entering a corner, but as CREAM proved, means you have a really playful & contollable oversteer mid-corner onwards. But then, I could be totally wrong, as I can't drive to save my life.
Well colour me confused because I thought if you were getting more understeer in a corner it was because you had effectively increased the rear grip levels.
My problem is, and always has been finding a predictable oversteer point. A slight failing of the Cerb because mine doesn't seem to have predictable oversteer. It sneaks up in the middle of the night and pulls your trousers down.
I thought, and am probably wrong that I would trade flat out speed ability round a corner for a predictable oversteer point. Understeer in the Cerb is unlikely to put me into the scenery in the Cerb, but oversteer certainly will so I do what I can to dial it out or have it predictable. I can't dial it out.
Surely to a simpleton like me, although I know Tam has that website of over and understeer facts waiting to make me look stupid
Taking off the rear ARB is equvalent to dialing in a lot less damping at the rear as well as unloading the inside tyre in a corner. So I was planning to go much firmer on the rear remove ARB and leave the front alone?
Currently rears one click from soft fronts 4 clicks from hard.
My problem is, and always has been finding a predictable oversteer point. A slight failing of the Cerb because mine doesn't seem to have predictable oversteer. It sneaks up in the middle of the night and pulls your trousers down.
I thought, and am probably wrong that I would trade flat out speed ability round a corner for a predictable oversteer point. Understeer in the Cerb is unlikely to put me into the scenery in the Cerb, but oversteer certainly will so I do what I can to dial it out or have it predictable. I can't dial it out.
Surely to a simpleton like me, although I know Tam has that website of over and understeer facts waiting to make me look stupid
Taking off the rear ARB is equvalent to dialing in a lot less damping at the rear as well as unloading the inside tyre in a corner. So I was planning to go much firmer on the rear remove ARB and leave the front alone? Currently rears one click from soft fronts 4 clicks from hard.
Not sure you can answer this question fully on a forum...so many variables to consider.
I only get understeer in slow corners, it's mainly down to weight transfer under braking and corner entry speed. I havn't been able to dial it out completely, the set-up is always a compromise.
I assume high speed oversteer is your main problem? that's when the scenery hurts the most.
Don't know what springs you're running so can't compare damper settings but I still think you're way too soft at the back. This gives good traction under acceleration but even with the ARB I would have thought it rolled guite a lot, a bigger compromise in high speed corners I'd say, just where you don't need it.
I drove Joos S on a trackday once with his 'fun' settings (read sideways at every corner but not fast). I hated it, just didn't suit my driving style at all, spin city. Got Joo to increase the rears by 5 clicks and it transformed the handling, much more progressive breaking away, more composed in high speed corners and faster to boot. Personally I'd go back to a middle setting on the rear, keep the ARB for a while and adjust from there. If it's still snappy get someone to do a geometry check to rule that out. Problem is the roads will be getting slippy and cold now so possibly not the best time to be experimenting.
Ceejay
P.S. if you can't bring the car to your way of thinking adapt your style to suit the car.
I only get understeer in slow corners, it's mainly down to weight transfer under braking and corner entry speed. I havn't been able to dial it out completely, the set-up is always a compromise.
I assume high speed oversteer is your main problem? that's when the scenery hurts the most.
Don't know what springs you're running so can't compare damper settings but I still think you're way too soft at the back. This gives good traction under acceleration but even with the ARB I would have thought it rolled guite a lot, a bigger compromise in high speed corners I'd say, just where you don't need it.
I drove Joos S on a trackday once with his 'fun' settings (read sideways at every corner but not fast). I hated it, just didn't suit my driving style at all, spin city. Got Joo to increase the rears by 5 clicks and it transformed the handling, much more progressive breaking away, more composed in high speed corners and faster to boot. Personally I'd go back to a middle setting on the rear, keep the ARB for a while and adjust from there. If it's still snappy get someone to do a geometry check to rule that out. Problem is the roads will be getting slippy and cold now so possibly not the best time to be experimenting.
Ceejay
P.S. if you can't bring the car to your way of thinking adapt your style to suit the car.
I wouldn't recommend 'on the limit road use' that's what race tracks are for!!!!!!
I'm happy to mess about with dampers but I don't have the equipment to measure camber and toe....luckily I know someone rather good at that sort of thing who can interpret my feedback. Bear in mind that a road car is always a compromise and race cars are tuned to specific tracks and conditions.
All I try to achieve on my road car is a good balance, a fairly neutral set-up with predictable transition from understeer to oversteer. Joo and I have worked on the car for quite a while now with several evolutions of Nitron dampers. We do all of the testing on track where it's safe and you can explore the limits of the car. Until you get the car sliding you can't make positive judgements about the set-up. I don't recommend this sort of testing on the road, that could end up very expensive. I'd rather pay an expert to come along to a track day and work with me to get the best from the car.
Ceejay
I'm happy to mess about with dampers but I don't have the equipment to measure camber and toe....luckily I know someone rather good at that sort of thing who can interpret my feedback. Bear in mind that a road car is always a compromise and race cars are tuned to specific tracks and conditions.
All I try to achieve on my road car is a good balance, a fairly neutral set-up with predictable transition from understeer to oversteer. Joo and I have worked on the car for quite a while now with several evolutions of Nitron dampers. We do all of the testing on track where it's safe and you can explore the limits of the car. Until you get the car sliding you can't make positive judgements about the set-up. I don't recommend this sort of testing on the road, that could end up very expensive. I'd rather pay an expert to come along to a track day and work with me to get the best from the car.
Ceejay
Fair point. 
I meant more along the lines of getting the 'best' out of traction and grip in road conditions where surprises are just waiting to happen...
I always thought the benefits of an ARB far exceed the advantages of without, last thing you want is to plug a hole on one side at speed and 'god forbid' take off!!!.... dampers alone cant compensate for the loss of an ARB regardless of their configuration.
I meant more along the lines of getting the 'best' out of traction and grip in road conditions where surprises are just waiting to happen...
I always thought the benefits of an ARB far exceed the advantages of without, last thing you want is to plug a hole on one side at speed and 'god forbid' take off!!!.... dampers alone cant compensate for the loss of an ARB regardless of their configuration.
If you want predictable oversteer buy a SP6.
The spec is easy to replicate .. soft sprung / firm damper front, stiff sprung stiff roll soggy damper rear, narrow low grip tyres, no static -ve camber at rear.
predictable but effing slow ...
ever thought of driver training? you can go learn this kinda stuff in safety. contact mr sideways for further details
oops I've just given my suspension set-up secrets away to Bugsy
The spec is easy to replicate .. soft sprung / firm damper front, stiff sprung stiff roll soggy damper rear, narrow low grip tyres, no static -ve camber at rear.
predictable but effing slow ...
ever thought of driver training? you can go learn this kinda stuff in safety. contact mr sideways for further details
oops I've just given my suspension set-up secrets away to Bugsy
It's a big topic though Ash and there isn't really a set answer. What suits one driver may not suit another.
So many variables
tyre pressures (I run 25 front and rear, 235/255 18's
tyres (Goodyear GSD-3)
ride height (some are way too low imho)
toe
camber
springs
dampers (Nitrons- valved for me)
ARB (I have mine fitted, some prefer without)
driver
I still think the last one is important, if you ask something of the car it is incapable of doing and you can't improve it with set-up then you have to modify your inputs to suit what the car wants.
Ceejay
So many variables
tyre pressures (I run 25 front and rear, 235/255 18's
tyres (Goodyear GSD-3)
ride height (some are way too low imho)
toe
camber
springs
dampers (Nitrons- valved for me)
ARB (I have mine fitted, some prefer without)
driver
I still think the last one is important, if you ask something of the car it is incapable of doing and you can't improve it with set-up then you have to modify your inputs to suit what the car wants.
Ceejay
trackcar said:
If you want predictable oversteer buy a SP6.
The spec is easy to replicate .. soft sprung / firm damper front, stiff sprung stiff roll soggy damper rear, narrow low grip tyres, no static -ve camber at rear.
predictable but effing slow ...
ever thought of driver training? you can go learn this kinda stuff in safety. contact mr sideways for further details
oops I've just given my suspension set-up secrets away to Bugsy
lol, bugsy looks up to you Joolz, you're his inspiration
Driver training? 5 years ago, yup, quite a few, a lot of money wasted on stuff that I picked up driving around back home in my teens... lol
What I need, is to have my own track with a camber, and the ability to lay oil spots here and there and robot driven objects that come out of nowhere... then I can spend weeks perfecting my skills, like warzone driving, and then I can write a book, "How to handle yourself in rush-hour traffic" lol
ceejay said:
It's a big topic though Ash and there isn't really a set answer. What suits one driver may not suit another.
So many variables
tyre pressures (I run 25 front and rear, 235/255 18's
tyres (Goodyear GSD-3)
ride height (some are way too low imho)
toe
camber
springs
dampers (Nitrons- valved for me)
ARB (I have mine fitted, some prefer without)
driver
I still think the last one is important, if you ask something of the car it is incapable of doing and you can't improve it with set-up then you have to modify your inputs to suit what the car wants.
Ceejay
Was just thinking, Joo just gave me an idea!!!
With your professional experience etc behind you, I mean no matter how good us mere mortal drivers think we are, we can learn a lot more from pro racers like yourself... so why not you start up a Racer Training School for TVR owners????
A whole new business line, on the side, Track Car solutions can be the tuner you could refer your customers to, and you can do all the training! I'd be first to sign up mate!!! But be easy on the pricing, justifying race-training to the other halves is not easy when you've already thrown a lot at your P&J...
SXS said:
Was just thinking, Joo just gave me an idea!!!
With your professional experience etc behind you, I mean no matter how good us mere mortal drivers think we are, we can learn a lot more from pro racers like yourself... so why not you start up a Racer Training School for TVR owners????
A whole new business line, on the side, Track Car solutions can be the tuner you could refer your customers to, and you can do all the training! I'd be first to sign up mate!!! But be easy on the pricing, justifying race-training to the other halves is not easy when you've already thrown a lot at your P&J...
Nah!!! I'm just a keen amateur who likes driving fast, but there's plenty of others who can teach you a thing or two. I'd recommend Steve Lewis on PH, top bloke, TVR nut (ex Cerb owner) and very experienced in the art of racing.
I just enjoy the challenge of pushing myself as a driver and improving the car technically. The odd thing is when you are going really well it doesn't feel like you're pushing at all, everything slots into place, the car does what you ask of it and you know what it's going to do.
Ceejay
Ceejay, in your opinion, if someone wanted to really get into racing, lets say just amateur league, nothing serious just as a hobby. What base car would be the ideal choice? Had this conversation with porcsha owner and he reckoned a cheap lotus elise would be ideal for this kind of thing... what you think?
MR BHP said:
Ceejay, in your opinion, if someone wanted to really get into racing, lets say just amateur league, nothing serious just as a hobby. What base car would be the ideal choice? Had this conversation with porcsha owner and he reckoned a cheap lotus elise would be ideal for this kind of thing... what you think?
I reckon if you're learning pick something strong like a Tasmin. Seen some big shunts now in these (2 from the drivers seat) and they stand up really well. You're more likely to make mistakes in your first couple of seasons so ideally it'll need to be cheap to fix too. I think really the choice dpends on the type of car you enjoy driving, the MG guys seem to have fun and you can pick up a prepared MG Maetro for peanuts. TVR racing costs a bit more but if you love em it's the only place to be, and there are quite a few race prepped Tasmins about now for sensible money.
Ceejay
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff