Turbocharging a Cerbera.
Discussion
could you not get away with light pressure turbos? This would not involved huge changes to the engine internals but it would sort the breathing out, that seems to be the main issue of extracting more horses from the AJP.
Would love to have a go unfortuantly I would have to go if the misses finds out
Would love to have a go unfortuantly I would have to go if the misses finds out
paulk said:
could you not get away with light pressure turbos? This would not involved huge changes to the engine internals but it would sort the breathing out, that seems to be the main issue of extracting more horses from the AJP.
Would love to have a go unfortuantly I would have to go if the misses finds out
No point really, you would still need to make new headers, new exhausts, a new intake system, upgrade the fueling, an aftermarket ecu... etc etc etc....
Doing it on the cheap on race-like engines is playing with fire! Unlike japanese or yank engines, these engines would need some serious development in certain areas for turbos to work efficiently, even on low boost. Supercharging at is the quickest and cheapest option for low boost.
If highboost was on the tables, then regardless of supercharging or turbocharging... the costs are astronomical, trust me, I know!
Spool - the best way of getting tonnes of power on the cheap and run the engine rather safely would be to talk to Craig, hes building a 700hp NOS cerbera at this moment... and I believe he sells his nos kits, plug and play for 1700ish.
he's also proved that running nos with his configuration via progressive controller, you could utilise that power on the top end without any undue stress on drivetrain and engine... he was running his on track etc for over a year with his nos setup, now's got tuscan racer heads and stroked engine etc.... its gonna be a killer. 
Julian64 said:
Oh No, not another Cerb owner who doesn't see the advantage in making it round the corners.
Well, something would have to be done with the unsprung weight on the wheels.
And yes, you should go for max 0.6 - 0.8bar of boost or something.
Why not... lets rant over this a bit from my point of view then, a little daydream shall we?
First, i would most likely build it like a porsche turbo.
two identical turbos.IE one to start with, and as the revs build you give it a second scroller!
Boost would be speed sensitive in x y and z axis.
Some sort of gyro feedback. Simply put, a small gizmo that determins how much grip is still left before slippage. A sort of space age antispin gizmo.
Chargecoolers are a must, as is watercooled turbos.
It would be a very smart build indeed. But thus would I do it.
The reason for not using a a paralell twinsystem is that you would most likely lose the fab response if you did.
Now, Its just a daydream, albeit a very realistic one.
To end it all here, ZMI (titanium) brakes would most likely be a hot ticket!
>> Edited by spool on Tuesday 18th October 16:11
SXS said:
could you not get away with light pressure turbos? This would not involved huge changes to the engine internals but it would sort the breathing out, that seems to be the main issue of extracting more horses from the AJP.
Would love to have a go unfortuantly I would have to go if the misses finds out
No point really, you would still need to make new headers, new exhausts, a new intake system, upgrade the fueling, an aftermarket ecu... etc etc etc....
Doing it on the cheap on race-like engines is playing with fire! Unlike japanese or yank engines, these engines would need some serious development in certain areas for turbos to work efficiently, even on low boost. Supercharging at is the quickest and cheapest option for low boost.
If highboost was on the tables, then regardless of supercharging or turbocharging... the costs are astronomical, trust me, I know!
Spool - the best way of getting tonnes of power on the cheap and run the engine rather safely would be to talk to Craig, hes building a 700hp NOS cerbera at this moment... and I believe he sells his nos kits, plug and play for 1700ish.
700 piggie breakers! Woah!
Well, If I do decide to tune a cerbera, I think I would do it the hard way... with turbos.
The Ignition/fuelmaps on a tvr is written for rapid rev changes as I seem to remeber. Not Ideal for turbos at all.
Yeah, you would have to get the right person to map it all out, or forget it all together.
I do love turbos! (my nickname...)
Yarr!
If you got the cash, tvrcraft will do it 
Sequential turbos are a good idea... but there is more to this than meets the eye... first of all, glassfibre is a well known heat insulator! With the current temps already making the engine bay an oven, with turbos you will be creating a nuclear reactor.
Second of all, you have NO clearance in there! The passenger and drive footwells come right up to the headers. Thirdly, you will have to move the turbos further forward, this kills the advantage of low boost turbos because of the distance from hot push/pull vortexes. In essence you will create LAG...
If there was plenty of space in there on the sides and a good cooling solution could be implemented for turbo and headers then its a viable option running low boost.
In reality, its not practical, be it low boost or high boost, lag will be the killer, put your foot down in a porsche turbo and you feel the lag! Although not as bad as some ricers, but its there. Now move those turbos further away from the heads and you have an exponential lag, its really that simple, there is some info on the web about it.
You could potentially modify the chassis and interior to do this, but then again you will run into problems of cooling the damn things, the wheel wells are very tightly packed. Getting airflow in there will be an amazing feat, especially after you fit in an intercooler, tubing, upgraded rad etc etc... Also the current engine temps are quite high, and the compression is 10.2:1+ (varies throughout the years), they already pink slightly, you increase the heat of that pressurised air and welcome pre-det heaven, and again you're looking at extreme ignition retards etc to compensate, and again creating lag...
The way I see it, the red-rose high-compression heads is best way of getting a good power-hike, NOS another good one due its cooling nature. Supercharging yes, thanks to chargecoolers and the fact they dont heat up to turbo levels, making sure the air is nice and dense.
The other problem you have, is that this engine is a flat-V8, you cannot cross the headers, not a good thing, as its essentially two 2.2 litre engines running together, and you just cant produce the forces needed to drive HUGE turbos unless you're really flooring it, again... not good.
So many practical reasons why turbocharging the flat AJPV8... when you start looking at costs to solve these issues, thats when you think, mmm.... just buy a damn porsche...
Low boost supercharging, or NOS or high compression heads. These are the simplest solutions.
Both turbocharging and highboost supercharging require extensive work.
Sequential turbos are a good idea... but there is more to this than meets the eye... first of all, glassfibre is a well known heat insulator! With the current temps already making the engine bay an oven, with turbos you will be creating a nuclear reactor.
Second of all, you have NO clearance in there! The passenger and drive footwells come right up to the headers. Thirdly, you will have to move the turbos further forward, this kills the advantage of low boost turbos because of the distance from hot push/pull vortexes. In essence you will create LAG...
If there was plenty of space in there on the sides and a good cooling solution could be implemented for turbo and headers then its a viable option running low boost.
In reality, its not practical, be it low boost or high boost, lag will be the killer, put your foot down in a porsche turbo and you feel the lag! Although not as bad as some ricers, but its there. Now move those turbos further away from the heads and you have an exponential lag, its really that simple, there is some info on the web about it.
You could potentially modify the chassis and interior to do this, but then again you will run into problems of cooling the damn things, the wheel wells are very tightly packed. Getting airflow in there will be an amazing feat, especially after you fit in an intercooler, tubing, upgraded rad etc etc... Also the current engine temps are quite high, and the compression is 10.2:1+ (varies throughout the years), they already pink slightly, you increase the heat of that pressurised air and welcome pre-det heaven, and again you're looking at extreme ignition retards etc to compensate, and again creating lag...
The way I see it, the red-rose high-compression heads is best way of getting a good power-hike, NOS another good one due its cooling nature. Supercharging yes, thanks to chargecoolers and the fact they dont heat up to turbo levels, making sure the air is nice and dense.
The other problem you have, is that this engine is a flat-V8, you cannot cross the headers, not a good thing, as its essentially two 2.2 litre engines running together, and you just cant produce the forces needed to drive HUGE turbos unless you're really flooring it, again... not good.
So many practical reasons why turbocharging the flat AJPV8... when you start looking at costs to solve these issues, thats when you think, mmm.... just buy a damn porsche...
Low boost supercharging, or NOS or high compression heads. These are the simplest solutions.
Both turbocharging and highboost supercharging require extensive work.
My brother is always nagging about turbo porsches...
But I dont like them! So...
Well SXS, I see your point from a tech side here.
But as you say, Its all just a tech problem, it can be solved.
With all the nice new cerams and coatings these days you can really work wonders. And fitting headers and all is
most likely a daunting task to say it lightly.
But I am certain that it is possible.
I can imagine the price for such a thing surpassing the
initial cost of a car easy.
Yo Santa!
Add this one on my list!
But I dont like them! So...
Well SXS, I see your point from a tech side here.
But as you say, Its all just a tech problem, it can be solved.
With all the nice new cerams and coatings these days you can really work wonders. And fitting headers and all is
most likely a daunting task to say it lightly.
But I am certain that it is possible.
I can imagine the price for such a thing surpassing the
initial cost of a car easy.
Yo Santa!
Add this one on my list! I've turbocharged a rover 4.5 and 5.0 but not in a tvr. They ran 9:1 compression, had zero lag and would accept 7-8 psi of boost. I can also cast really compact headers for tight places.
If I wanted more boost from a rover I would start with custom forged pistons and a rebalance of the internals. The rest of it could be kept fairly simple, either carbed or with an aftermarket ecu.
I'm building a 4.8 turbo engine at the moment for a marcos and it to has a confined engine bay but as it's a low boost project I'll probably use 1 turbo.
Boosted.
If I wanted more boost from a rover I would start with custom forged pistons and a rebalance of the internals. The rest of it could be kept fairly simple, either carbed or with an aftermarket ecu.
I'm building a 4.8 turbo engine at the moment for a marcos and it to has a confined engine bay but as it's a low boost project I'll probably use 1 turbo.
Boosted.
SXS said:
Sequential turbos are a good idea...
That doesn't sound like a particularly good idea, I think this would probably be worse than a single turbo. I would have thought a better idea would be to have two turbos in parallel, with the exhaust feed to one shut off by a wastegate actuated by the boost from the other.
GreenV8S said:
Sequential turbos are a good idea...
That doesn't sound like a particularly good idea, I think this would probably be worse than a single turbo. I would have thought a better idea would be to have two turbos in parallel, with the exhaust feed to one shut off by a wastegate actuated by the boost from the other.
It works for buggati... should be ok for us... plus with todays sequential setups being electronically controlled... you could fine tune some interesting power curves
GreenV8S said:
SXS said:
Sequential turbos are a good idea...
That doesn't sound like a particularly good idea, I think this would probably be worse than a single turbo. I would have thought a better idea would be to have two turbos in parallel, with the exhaust feed to one shut off by a wastegate actuated by the boost from the other.
Hm... Well, actually how it would be done is a good question.
What you are talking about is what is known as a Kniezevich.
A swede Kalled Milan Kniezevich teamed up with GIK of sweden to
make a twostage turbo in the late 80's.
It would boost some 3.5bars into a Volvo 2.1L and pull from 1000revs like a green Hulk.
You would get full torque from 2000 revs and more than 600 bhp.
Hard to find anything on it on the web.
Back in those days a built 600 bhp volvo 2.1L cost some
8500£ ready to wreck your diff, and it would!
The car magazine "Bilsport" Tested it.
"when we passed 2000 revs the rims would spinn inside the tyres... we had to bolt many small rivets to the rims to prevent this" they reported in the magazine.
>> Edited by spool on Tuesday 18th October 17:34
>> Edited by spool on Tuesday 18th October 17:35
Hmmm...
A combined aluminuminum (Bush-like) and carbon front
clip would have to be made (bonnet and the wells)
The Bugatti ... with is 4 IHI units looked like this:
Do you see the silver sleepingbags for the turbos?
No heat issues man, just plain superb engineering!
Without knowing this, I would assume they used oresmletzing worker cloth to cover the turbos.
Very tight fazzah!
>> Edited by spool on Tuesday 18th October 18:03
A combined aluminuminum (Bush-like) and carbon front
clip would have to be made (bonnet and the wells)
The Bugatti ... with is 4 IHI units looked like this:
Do you see the silver sleepingbags for the turbos?
No heat issues man, just plain superb engineering!
Without knowing this, I would assume they used oresmletzing worker cloth to cover the turbos.
Very tight fazzah!
>> Edited by spool on Tuesday 18th October 18:03
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