what one is best
Discussion
You've a Chim 400 at the moment, do you find yourself wanting more power? If the answers yes, you'll may find that nothing will satisfy that urge quite like a 4.5, otherwise the lower initial cost of the 4.2 could be of benefit, depending upon your budget, I did find however that 4.2 tended to be lower specced that most 4.5, half leather, standard wheels etc. It all depends what you want.
Reliability wise, AFAIK they're pretty much even, can't imagine a huge difference in insurance either.
Reliability wise, AFAIK they're pretty much even, can't imagine a huge difference in insurance either.
A good 4.2 with the right map can get 360. A good 4.5 with the right map can get 380....
As far as power is concerned, takes your pick...
The other goodies are nice, but I guess with any decent money spent you could get them done and better than stock on a 4.2...
The 4.5 vs 4.2 battle is just badge snobbery.... IMO...
Both are excellent cars....
Even a good speed 6 with a remap can get you 360 easily....
The 4.5 really excells in the time it takes to get up there to 180... but how often will you be going up to that end...
The 4.5 red-rose with a good remap can easily get 400-420.... but with the added worries of a high-compression engine's lastability on the limit...
As far as power is concerned, takes your pick...
The other goodies are nice, but I guess with any decent money spent you could get them done and better than stock on a 4.2...
The 4.5 vs 4.2 battle is just badge snobbery.... IMO...
Both are excellent cars....
Even a good speed 6 with a remap can get you 360 easily....
The 4.5 really excells in the time it takes to get up there to 180... but how often will you be going up to that end...
The 4.5 red-rose with a good remap can easily get 400-420.... but with the added worries of a high-compression engine's lastability on the limit...
SXS said:
A good 4.2 with the right map can get 360....
Interesting point Ash, I thought the general opinion was that the 4.2 produces damn near the quoted figure out of the box and there was little point in remapping it as there would be hardly anything to gain for a large expenditure?
Do you know of any re mapped 4.2?
spartacus said:
A good 4.2 with the right map can get 360....
Interesting point Ash, I thought the general opinion was that the 4.2 produces damn near the quoted figure out of the box and there was little point in remapping it as there would be hardly anything to gain for a large expenditure?
Do you know of any re mapped 4.2?
Spot on Pete.
BCA said:
A good 4.2 can get 360bhp. A good 4.5 can get 360bhp....
As far as (BHP)power is concerned, takes your pick...
The 4.5 vs 4.2 battle is just badge snobbery.... IMO... Or for those who prefer more lower down torque
Both are excellent cars.... (damn right)
A 4.2 isnt worth mapping for anything other than smoothness
A 4.5 can be mapped to be much smoother and get between 370-391bhp (air intake limit) - intake mods can push this figure beyond 400.
Even a good speed 6 with a remap can get you 360 easily... With less torque
The 4.5 really excells in the time it takes to get up there to 180 and also when you make better use of the torque spread
The 4.5 red-rose with a good remap can easily get 400-420.... I have'nt heard of any Red Rose needing a rebuild, well, not AJP8 anyway.
I believe the above is correct, will edit if someone proves otherwise to what I have suggested.
The 4.2 is more of a bargain as standard... the 4.5 the better car to mod for more power.
Edited: To make it all my own opinion, apologies to SXS and anyone who confused my previous post as SXS's own opinion, his are stated elsewhere, mine are stated above.
>> Edited by BCA on Wednesday 4th January 17:12
BCA, I will appreciate it if you DO NOT edit my quote as that is NOT what I said!
Also, the original question asked was asked by a Cerbera novice, I kept my answer simple and straightforward, we could all spend days discussing this topic, but my answer just went straight to the point, but just for the hell of it, heres a 'tiny' further explanation:
A few red-roses have had top end damage, valves, cams and gasket failures within a few thou. Funnily enough I personally only know of 3 who were Pistonheaders, and two of them have moved on to another marque. But my extensive research into the AJPV8's reliability record (whilst analysing the viability of my project) in the past did bring up a few statistics, the red-rose's take a lot more beating, the earlier ones were susceptible to quite a few problems, the newer ones tend to be a better setup, I believe its due to a comprise in CR/fuelling and other variables which are out of scope of this discussion.
A remapped 4.5 will get around 20-30bhp tops ontop of a remapped 4.2 (yes its a given the 4.2 is closer to its power claim than a 4.5, but a remap still helps! its just the personal justification behind the desire to throw money at what you see fit) there really isnt much in bhp terms, yes its a given the torque band/delivery differs between the 4.2 and 4.5, but not majorly, evident from the many graphs produced by Nobles/SRR/Austec in the past, but the end result is pretty much selective of personal opinion. Its less than 300cc difference between the 4.2 and 4.5, the breathing is different, there is a less artificial ram-effect in the 4.2 which can be utilised but I am a firm believer the 4.2 can deliver more if the right research is done/or a tuner desires to focus their attention on attempting externa modifications to the 4.2 (ie fuelling, breathing, exhaust etc), the earlier 4.2's had more aggressive timing and were very responsive (I'm not speaking out my battyhole here, I drove 2 back a few years now, and I noticed the difference almost immediatly!), but sadly a bad batch of cams caused TVR no end of troubles, I believe Joolz talked of this a few times, and TVR not only modified the timing, but also reduced the compression ratio, whence the non-red-roses actually came out of the factory in a slightly detuned form, (also another reason why re-mapping the car gets you better results, but at what costs in terms of reliability?!)...
Anyway going off topic now....
The 4.2 and 4.5 - forget performance, just look at the extras that come with a 4.5, but then there are 4.2's on the market with the upgrades that are even better deals than some 4.5's so again... 'its all a money/what you get for it' dillemma....
Also, the Speed 6 issue has been run into the ground, its generally accepted that for some reason, SOME speed 6's are running really well, but again its a gamble with the Cerbies earlier speed 6 revisions under the hood... but one with a recent rebuild might not be such a bad choice....
All IMRO....
Some will disagree, some will not, but thats not my concern...
this is a small part of my analysis on the 4.2 vs 4.5 all time great debate...
Others will have differing opinions of how they interpret what they know or have heard.
>> Edited by SXS on Wednesday 4th January 10:59
Also, the original question asked was asked by a Cerbera novice, I kept my answer simple and straightforward, we could all spend days discussing this topic, but my answer just went straight to the point, but just for the hell of it, heres a 'tiny' further explanation:
A few red-roses have had top end damage, valves, cams and gasket failures within a few thou. Funnily enough I personally only know of 3 who were Pistonheaders, and two of them have moved on to another marque. But my extensive research into the AJPV8's reliability record (whilst analysing the viability of my project) in the past did bring up a few statistics, the red-rose's take a lot more beating, the earlier ones were susceptible to quite a few problems, the newer ones tend to be a better setup, I believe its due to a comprise in CR/fuelling and other variables which are out of scope of this discussion.
A remapped 4.5 will get around 20-30bhp tops ontop of a remapped 4.2 (yes its a given the 4.2 is closer to its power claim than a 4.5, but a remap still helps! its just the personal justification behind the desire to throw money at what you see fit) there really isnt much in bhp terms, yes its a given the torque band/delivery differs between the 4.2 and 4.5, but not majorly, evident from the many graphs produced by Nobles/SRR/Austec in the past, but the end result is pretty much selective of personal opinion. Its less than 300cc difference between the 4.2 and 4.5, the breathing is different, there is a less artificial ram-effect in the 4.2 which can be utilised but I am a firm believer the 4.2 can deliver more if the right research is done/or a tuner desires to focus their attention on attempting externa modifications to the 4.2 (ie fuelling, breathing, exhaust etc), the earlier 4.2's had more aggressive timing and were very responsive (I'm not speaking out my battyhole here, I drove 2 back a few years now, and I noticed the difference almost immediatly!), but sadly a bad batch of cams caused TVR no end of troubles, I believe Joolz talked of this a few times, and TVR not only modified the timing, but also reduced the compression ratio, whence the non-red-roses actually came out of the factory in a slightly detuned form, (also another reason why re-mapping the car gets you better results, but at what costs in terms of reliability?!)...
Anyway going off topic now....
The 4.2 and 4.5 - forget performance, just look at the extras that come with a 4.5, but then there are 4.2's on the market with the upgrades that are even better deals than some 4.5's so again... 'its all a money/what you get for it' dillemma....
Also, the Speed 6 issue has been run into the ground, its generally accepted that for some reason, SOME speed 6's are running really well, but again its a gamble with the Cerbies earlier speed 6 revisions under the hood... but one with a recent rebuild might not be such a bad choice....
All IMRO....
Some will disagree, some will not, but thats not my concern...
this is a small part of my analysis on the 4.2 vs 4.5 all time great debate...
Others will have differing opinions of how they interpret what they know or have heard.
>> Edited by SXS on Wednesday 4th January 10:59
Ash,
I think you've been a bit harsh on BCA, he edited your post to reflect his own points of view, and not to say that your opinion is wrong. I agree with most points on here between which is the better option. From a cost perspective it is still the 4.2 that represents the best VFM, but from a tuning perspective it is definitely the 4.5 that reaps most benefit. Not only can a 4.5 go on to produce a good 40bhp more than a very healthy 4.2, but it can also produce power and torque curves that are a vast improvement on the 4.2s as can be seen in this thread;
[url]www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=223033[/url]
I think you've been a bit harsh on BCA, he edited your post to reflect his own points of view, and not to say that your opinion is wrong. I agree with most points on here between which is the better option. From a cost perspective it is still the 4.2 that represents the best VFM, but from a tuning perspective it is definitely the 4.5 that reaps most benefit. Not only can a 4.5 go on to produce a good 40bhp more than a very healthy 4.2, but it can also produce power and torque curves that are a vast improvement on the 4.2s as can be seen in this thread;
[url]www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=223033[/url]
My point of view on the 4.2 v 4.5 decision was that I wanted a 4.5, but if the right colour combination, spec and price of 4.2 came along, I would have it, as it happened I found what I wanted in a 4.5 
Ash - cheers for pointing out the later Red Roses are less liable to failure, my blood pressure has returned to it's usual state now
One thing you will notice in club circles is that there are very few 4.5s around, my guess being is previous owners of TVRs will always go for the biggest engine possible, where-as those new into the fold are so amazed by 4.2 and SP6 power, they don't have the need for anything else.
I've done test drives of all three together and preferred the 4.5 over the 4.2 for its delivery, the SP6 is an entirely different beast, it is so different it could be another car entirely, pop down to dealer with a good selection of cars and ask to do some back to backs to see what you think.
Ash - cheers for pointing out the later Red Roses are less liable to failure, my blood pressure has returned to it's usual state now
One thing you will notice in club circles is that there are very few 4.5s around, my guess being is previous owners of TVRs will always go for the biggest engine possible, where-as those new into the fold are so amazed by 4.2 and SP6 power, they don't have the need for anything else.
I've done test drives of all three together and preferred the 4.5 over the 4.2 for its delivery, the SP6 is an entirely different beast, it is so different it could be another car entirely, pop down to dealer with a good selection of cars and ask to do some back to backs to see what you think.
Cyclone1 said:
Ash,
I think you've been a bit harsh on BCA, he edited your post to reflect his own points of view, and not to say that your opinion is wrong. I agree with most points on here between which is the better option. From a cost perspective it is still the 4.2 that represents the best VFM, but from a tuning perspective it is definitely the 4.5 that reaps most benefit. Not only can a 4.5 go on to produce a good 40bhp more than a very healthy 4.2, but it can also produce power and torque curves that are a vast improvement on the 4.2s as can be seen in this thread;
[url]www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=223033[/url]
Cyclone, I wasnt being harsh at all, but yes as it is an emotionaless virtual world where the nature of a post can be taken either correctly or incorrectly all down to the readers perception.
Theres mainly 3 types of buyers, the first love the car stock and dont have a desire to change anything bar a sports exhaust/decat. The second love the idea of getting more out of the engine at reasonable cost. The 3rd just aint got a clue.
When someone comes along asking for an opinion, many of us will have differing opinions based on personal experience, historical knowledge, technical background and realistic motions.
If we look back historically, joolz has quite often recommended the 4.2's, yet he only pushed his tuning on the 4.5's after realising there wasnt much more that could be done for the 4.2 as far as fairly straightforward external mods are concerned. Everyone knows the 4.2 can be a better package, there arent many 4.5's on the roads, the number sold were in the hundreds, so they are premium not only from the angle they're a better spec'd car (stock level), but also the angle of being rare... Also the 4.2's selling prices back in 97 shifted around the 40k mark where the 4.5's price shifted around the 45-48k mark, and up to 55k depending on wild paint jobs etc... the price difference didnt really tally up with the actual differences between the cars, ok the 4.2 stock has 16 inch wheels with fat wall tyres and the 4.5 had 17 inch wheels with sort of low profiles and then the 18" wheels as option, then the air con was optional back then, so to was the smoker option....
IMO, both the 4.2 and 4.5 are equals, there isnt much in them, I could quite easily recommend a few race-tuners (non-tvr) who would be interested in working on a 4.2 and showing what can be achieved with a little more fettling than just exterior mods, but then the price equation comes into it.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that ok, from what we know from the current options available and what the current crop of tuners have done/doing, the 4.5 is a better option for tuning, but then I also firmly believe thats not the end-all of it, there is a LOT you can do for both engines, money talks.
So for the casual buyer, the best looking, well looked after and good history cerbie is the way to go, the 4.2 vs 4.5 is immaterial.
BCA, sorry, my earlier post does come across as a snap, but you know what I'm like
Anyway, the ABOVE is ALL my opinion, so all the regular liability clauses apply.
You would experience differences between cars with the same engine let alone different engine sizes.
In the sub 20k category we are generally looking at 3-4k price differential between the 4.2 and 4.5. That's alot of money for a 10% power gain. Oh, and Hydratrak? Don't some of the 4.5 boys want the non-hydratrak diffs after experiencing strange power application issues on track?
If you want to be in a position to have all the tuning goodies and money isn't an issue then the 4.5 is really the only choice. Otherwise, there are quite a few things to weigh up.
In the sub 20k category we are generally looking at 3-4k price differential between the 4.2 and 4.5. That's alot of money for a 10% power gain. Oh, and Hydratrak? Don't some of the 4.5 boys want the non-hydratrak diffs after experiencing strange power application issues on track?
If you want to be in a position to have all the tuning goodies and money isn't an issue then the 4.5 is really the only choice. Otherwise, there are quite a few things to weigh up.
purpleheadedcerb said:That is very true, some main dealers have absolute dogs of cars, while those at others are sweet as.
You would experience differences between cars with the same engine let alone different engine sizes.
Might also be worth looking at a car with the 2001 suspension changes, although for less than a £1k you could have Nitrons fitted which would be even better still.
What sort of money do you have to spend?
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