Avoiding Autumn/Winter write offs..
Discussion
Seem to be a number of Cerb write offs every year at this time of the year.
I struggle to see how these cars get written off when driving in a straight line on a gentle drive. Is there something special about Cerbs that make them inherently dangerous (when you remove torque, power and bhp from the equation)?
I tend to drive without using much pedal travel this time of the yr. I have had my moments which (when I was eventually honest with myself) were down to my driving (revs) and the conditions (weather, surface, camber, white lines, road not quite as straight as I convinced myself etc).
So my tips are:-
use hardly any of the pedal travel.
change up early
brake early
dont apply any power until exiting bend/corner
I struggle to see how these cars get written off when driving in a straight line on a gentle drive. Is there something special about Cerbs that make them inherently dangerous (when you remove torque, power and bhp from the equation)?
I tend to drive without using much pedal travel this time of the yr. I have had my moments which (when I was eventually honest with myself) were down to my driving (revs) and the conditions (weather, surface, camber, white lines, road not quite as straight as I convinced myself etc).
So my tips are:-
use hardly any of the pedal travel.
change up early
brake early
dont apply any power until exiting bend/corner
You saw the most recent reported?...
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=331249&f=13&h=0
I think it happened last month though
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=331249&f=13&h=0
I think it happened last month though
Edited by big_treacle on Tuesday 28th November 23:21
I have to admit to being slightly confused by all this. I find my Cerb has great traction really and thats driving on little country lanes every day often covered in mud from farmers and far from smooth. Even at this time of year though I find it quite safe to push the car, often, well almost always use all the rev range where possible and full throttle in third in the wet. Sometimes get wheel spin in third but quite rare even in the wet really. I actually find the handling very benign and predictable even when it starts to slide or twitch in a bend. My Cerb benefits from Nitrons and Spiders so maybe a bit better behaved than some, but would be amazed if there is really that much difference, the mods were done before I bought the car so not sure what the standard setup feels like.
So I guess I'm either not pushing the car hard enough, have a particurlarly well setup car or in the words of Richard Hammond I'm "A Driving God". I very much doubt the first and last points however.
So I guess I'm either not pushing the car hard enough, have a particurlarly well setup car or in the words of Richard Hammond I'm "A Driving God". I very much doubt the first and last points however.
I'm afraid I just done believe all these "I was travelling along nice and steadily, when all of a sudden the back just snapped out" stories. There is no way that can happen with any car. The only way a Cerb's back will step out is if you accelerate too hard at the wrong time, or your going to fast into a corner on a wet slippy road.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
jensena said:
I'm afraid I just done believe all these "I was travelling along nice and steadily, when all of a sudden the back just snapped out" stories. There is no way that can happen with any car. The only way a Cerb's back will step out is if you accelerate too hard at the wrong time, or your going to fast into a corner on a wet slippy road.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
.... Or a catastrophic failure at the front end that causes the arse to overtake.
The only time I ever suffered from a brown trouser moment was when I was driving like a t1t. I was lucky that I managed to drive out of it, but the "I was driving sensibly/gentle acceleration" is usually wishful thinking after the event when it has gone wrong.
Keep it sensible folks, we've had our quota of write offs this Winter so don't add to the list
Keep it sensible folks, we've had our quota of write offs this Winter so don't add to the list
V8Cerbera said:
jensena said:
I'm afraid I just done believe all these "I was travelling along nice and steadily, when all of a sudden the back just snapped out" stories. There is no way that can happen with any car. The only way a Cerb's back will step out is if you accelerate too hard at the wrong time, or your going to fast into a corner on a wet slippy road.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
It is the drivers fault, not the cars.
.... Or a catastrophic failure at the front end that causes the arse to overtake.
I find this all too confusing and spooky. Surely the driver would notice such a failure simultaneously with the ass breaking free?
I also note the back can go when accelerating hard on a cambered road. But that's predictable.
raw cerb said:
V8Cerbera said:
.... Or a catastrophic failure at the front end that causes the arse to overtake.
I find this all too confusing and spooky. Surely the driver would notice such a failure simultaneously with the ass breaking free?
Not necesserily. Say a hub froze solid or something else caused a wheel to lock, this may cause a jolt, which the driver may put down to "something in the road". But shock events, such as the ass end suddenly swinging out when you're not expecting it (at least when you're pushing your luck there is a slight air of inevitability) causes weird things to happen to perception of time and memory...
For me, if any thing's going to catch me out on my car, it's third gear in slightly damp conditions.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
In my first month of ownership, when the back flicked out, I panicked and instantly came off the revs, sending the rear end snapping back the other way.
My advice to new owners, would be very progressive with the throttle in the damp.
When I see these accidents at 45-60 mph, I'm sure it's the torque coming in at 3500 revs in third.
IMO of course
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
In my first month of ownership, when the back flicked out, I panicked and instantly came off the revs, sending the rear end snapping back the other way.
My advice to new owners, would be very progressive with the throttle in the damp.
When I see these accidents at 45-60 mph, I'm sure it's the torque coming in at 3500 revs in third.
IMO of course
RUSSELLM said:
For me, if any thing's going to catch me out on my car, it's third gear in slightly damp conditions.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
In my first month of ownership, when the back flicked out, I panicked and instantly came off the revs, sending the rear end snapping back the other way.
My advice to new owners, would be very progressive with the throttle in the damp.
When I see these accidents at 45-60 mph, I'm sure it's the torque coming in at 3500 revs in third.
IMO of course
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
In my first month of ownership, when the back flicked out, I panicked and instantly came off the revs, sending the rear end snapping back the other way.
My advice to new owners, would be very progressive with the throttle in the damp.
When I see these accidents at 45-60 mph, I'm sure it's the torque coming in at 3500 revs in third.
IMO of course
Thats what happened to me about two years back, I foolishly came off the revs and said hello to the embankment
I was lucky the insurance company were great and nobody was hurt (apart from pride and my pocket) it did cost them about 12K to fix. Be careful out there.I don't know if its a factor, but I've had a lot of bikes, from 50cc to 1100s and riding a motorcycle for any length of time gives you quite a sense of your own mortality. The other big plus is that bikers tend to be acutely aware of road conditions in terms of road surface and available grip, so when I see slime and leaves everywhere I'm subconcisouly thinking 'I could come off here'.
Also, the older I get the more realistic I've become about my driving skill levels, especially on public roads.
As Clint said 'a man's gotta know his limitations'
Edited to satisfy my pedantic, Clint-loving friend Mat
Also, the older I get the more realistic I've become about my driving skill levels, especially on public roads.
As Clint said 'a man's gotta know his limitations'
Edited to satisfy my pedantic, Clint-loving friend Mat
Edited by simonsparrow on Wednesday 29th November 18:21
RUSSELLM said:
For me, if any thing's going to catch me out on my car, it's third gear in slightly damp conditions.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
.. but if you know what it does, then you know how to avoid it...
Podie said:
RUSSELLM said:
For me, if any thing's going to catch me out on my car, it's third gear in slightly damp conditions.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
.. but if you know what it does, then you know how to avoid it...
I'm guessing there's a couple of owners out there, who, by the time they've found out about it, it's to late.
Edited by RUSSELLM on Wednesday 29th November 09:02
After all these stories of sudden loss of control I got a little worried about the Cerb although still couldn't understand the physics of it.
The closest I ever came is if the car alignment hasn't been set up properly, and when the back end is dug in during acceleration the front moves to one side.
But for that to happen the owner would have to have been driving round like a lemon with a slight pull to one side or the other while normal driving , and I can't beleve any owner puts up with that on a performance car.
I have, on numerous occasions when I just couldn't theorise it to push the car into lighting up the rear end at all sorts of speeds and conditions. Obviously this is important to me as I don't want one of these sudden episodes while carting my children around.
I find the car predicatable as hell, the only time I managed to spin the car was with pretty heavy handed steering on a dry road when the rear ended up having more grip than the front. On a wet road the rear loses grip way before the front.
I would be interested in these guys who do hill climbs sprints to see if they think the car is an unpredicatble deathtrap.
I think one of the problems here is the understandable sensitivity of the driver after the crash. Obviously upset they don't take to kindly to suggestions they were doing something daft. So its difficult to tell if they were or weren't. Especially if a big copper turned up I would be highly unlikely to volunteer I was driving like a looney.
When you think of it imagine you were a copper on duty at the london run. Three Cerbs destroyed in one evening. I pretty much think high spirits from the occasion is going to be your first thought, whether its true or not.
The closest I ever came is if the car alignment hasn't been set up properly, and when the back end is dug in during acceleration the front moves to one side.
But for that to happen the owner would have to have been driving round like a lemon with a slight pull to one side or the other while normal driving , and I can't beleve any owner puts up with that on a performance car.
I have, on numerous occasions when I just couldn't theorise it to push the car into lighting up the rear end at all sorts of speeds and conditions. Obviously this is important to me as I don't want one of these sudden episodes while carting my children around.
I find the car predicatable as hell, the only time I managed to spin the car was with pretty heavy handed steering on a dry road when the rear ended up having more grip than the front. On a wet road the rear loses grip way before the front.
I would be interested in these guys who do hill climbs sprints to see if they think the car is an unpredicatble deathtrap.
I think one of the problems here is the understandable sensitivity of the driver after the crash. Obviously upset they don't take to kindly to suggestions they were doing something daft. So its difficult to tell if they were or weren't. Especially if a big copper turned up I would be highly unlikely to volunteer I was driving like a looney.
When you think of it imagine you were a copper on duty at the london run. Three Cerbs destroyed in one evening. I pretty much think high spirits from the occasion is going to be your first thought, whether its true or not.
RUSSELLM said:
Podie said:
RUSSELLM said:
For me, if any thing's going to catch me out on my car, it's third gear in slightly damp conditions.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
On my car, if your accelerating in third it will give you traction (lulls you in to a false sense of security), but will let go approaching the 4000 revs mark, the back comes out a bit, and from experience, keeping my foot in the same position straightens the car up within a second.
.. but if you know what it does, then you know how to avoid it...
I'm guessing there's a couple of owners out there, who, by the time they've found out about it, it's to late.
Edited by RUSSELLM on Wednesday 29th November 09:02
In which case, get some driver training...
A lot of the owners of these cars, haven't had light, powerful rear wheel drive cars before.
If you put a novice in these cars, they get wheel spin in first and instantly know that they're using their boot to much.
It's that third gear for me, it lets you have traction but lets go further on up the rev range. Your natural reaction when the back comes out, is to come off the throttle, that then snaps you back the other way, and all of a sudden you're in a very violent snaking situation, where the back end eventually overtakes you.
The more I see / hear the speed of these accidents, the more I'm convinced it's that gear.
It doesn't happen to me, because I know it's going to happen (T shirt gained from a 100 yard sideways slide), I just wonder about people who've bought their car in the summer.
If you put a novice in these cars, they get wheel spin in first and instantly know that they're using their boot to much.
It's that third gear for me, it lets you have traction but lets go further on up the rev range. Your natural reaction when the back comes out, is to come off the throttle, that then snaps you back the other way, and all of a sudden you're in a very violent snaking situation, where the back end eventually overtakes you.
The more I see / hear the speed of these accidents, the more I'm convinced it's that gear.
It doesn't happen to me, because I know it's going to happen (T shirt gained from a 100 yard sideways slide), I just wonder about people who've bought their car in the summer.
RUSSELLM said:
A lot of the owners of these cars, haven't had light, powerful rear wheel drive cars before.
If you put a novice in these cars, they get wheel spin in first and instantly know that they're using their boot to much.
If you put a novice in these cars, they get wheel spin in first and instantly know that they're using their boot to much.
So get on a ride drive or similar. At some point we're all a novice at it. The Chimaera was a daily driver for two years (inc winters) and it went out in rain, sleet, hail, snow, ice - the lot. Granted it was only 280bhp, but the principle remains - LEARN about the car, and it'll be safer for you, and the bank balance...
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