Lambda - Measuring What Exactly
Lambda - Measuring What Exactly
Author
Discussion

marcus1970

Original Poster:

1,217 posts

265 months

Thursday 26th April 2007
quotequote all
Hello all...

When the lambdas show their readings ie between the usual 0 and 1.5 on the software display, what do the figures actually represent?

All info appreciated.

MB

hut49

3,544 posts

292 months

Thursday 26th April 2007
quotequote all
unburnt oxygen in the exhaust as a measure of combustion efficiency

methodwares

583 posts

274 months

Thursday 26th April 2007
quotequote all
oxygen doesn't burn... it combines with other atoms/molecules to produce energy from a chemical reaction. does the presence of oxygen in the exhaust indicate there is too much air (i.e. lean) and what about rich? as all the oxygen should be used up and unburnt fuel is sent down the exhaust.

jbvipercerb

246 posts

250 months

Thursday 26th April 2007
quotequote all
As far as I knew lambda is the amount of unused oxygen in the exhaust gas. Thats the reason for wrong lambda readings if there is a hole in the exhaust, air is drawn in through the opening and so raising the amount of oxygen present.
The 0-1.5 is the voltage coming out of the lambda sensors as they react to the oxygen in the gas.
Hope this is a help.confused

marcus1970

Original Poster:

1,217 posts

265 months

Thursday 26th April 2007
quotequote all
jbvipercerb said:
As far as I knew lambda is the amount of unused oxygen in the exhaust gas. Thats the reason for wrong lambda readings if there is a hole in the exhaust, air is drawn in through the opening and so raising the amount of oxygen present.
The 0-1.5 is the voltage coming out of the lambda sensors as they react to the oxygen in the gas.
Hope this is a help.confused


So what are the readings referencing? Is it a percentage or just a reading that can be worked with when adjusting air flow throttle etc.

MB

marcus1970

Original Poster:

1,217 posts

265 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
anyone???

MB

Julian64

14,325 posts

284 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
As far as I know its the ratio of fuel to air calculated as a fraction of stiochiometric.

Ie 'exhaust ratio detected'/1:14 = lamda value.

Simple huh. Now that I've answered that for you how about helping me with my question.

What is the calculation for an adaptive value on the Cerb?

No one seems to know.

mars

10,118 posts

244 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
Don't even try to make sense of the readings a narrow-band lambda sensor gives you. The operating range of these units is only a very small percentage either side of stoich (14.7:1 AFR or lambda = 1).

For max power a Cerb probably runs around 12.5:1 which will be well outside the operating range of the narrow-band lambda sensor, so it will always read rich.

I'm not really sure why a narrow-band lambda sensor is even part of a Cerb's design unless the map that TVR originally sold it with was seriously hamstrung to *try* and provide a stoich value at MoT-able readings (idle and about 2500rpm). Surely they can't be aiming at stoich values for normal use?

The Emerald-equipped cars will have been mapped with a wide-band lambda sensor which allows an actual numerical reading to be given, not just a plus or minus a small percentage either side of stoich. The RR operator (Jools in the case of my car) will have mapped the car to a target AFR and then tweaked it a little to give the best power at each speed and load site
and then the the map will have been "fixed" or, in other words, set to ignore the output from the narrow-band lambda sensor from then on.

You can now buy cheap wide-band lambda sensors with in-line control boxes, allowing you to leave them permanently wired into your car's ECU, and with the latest version of the Emerald you can use that wide-band lambda sensor to self-map. You'll have to know what your target AFR should be at different speed and load sites, but the possibility exists now and it works very well.

I'm sure this feature is not unique to the Emerald but it's a cheap unit and has a lot of support from both enthusiasts and professionals like Jools.

Julian64

14,325 posts

284 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
mars said:
Don't even try to make sense of the readings a narrow-band lambda sensor gives you. The operating range of these units is only a very small percentage either side of stoich (14.7:1 AFR or lambda = 1).

For max power a Cerb probably runs around 12.5:1 which will be well outside the operating range of the narrow-band lambda sensor, so it will always read rich.

I'm not really sure why a narrow-band lambda sensor is even part of a Cerb's design unless the map that TVR originally sold it with was seriously hamstrung to *try* and provide a stoich value at MoT-able readings (idle and about 2500rpm). Surely they can't be aiming at stoich values for normal use?

The Emerald-equipped cars will have been mapped with a wide-band lambda sensor which allows an actual numerical reading to be given, not just a plus or minus a small percentage either side of stoich. The RR operator (Jools in the case of my car) will have mapped the car to a target AFR and then tweaked it a little to give the best power at each speed and load site
and then the the map will have been "fixed" or, in other words, set to ignore the output from the narrow-band lambda sensor from then on.

You can now buy cheap wide-band lambda sensors with in-line control boxes, allowing you to leave them permanently wired into your car's ECU, and with the latest version of the Emerald you can use that wide-band lambda sensor to self-map. You'll have to know what your target AFR should be at different speed and load sites, but the possibility exists now and it works very well.

I'm sure this feature is not unique to the Emerald but it's a cheap unit and has a lot of support from both enthusiasts and professionals like Jools.



I was pretty sure that when jools fits an emerald he doesn't even connect it to a lamda sensor. The thing runs open loop all the time despite the chap at emerald saying it runs with a wideband sensor.

mars

10,118 posts

244 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
I'd have though it likely that Jools maps an engine with a wideband, although not necessarily so, but then he leaves it "open" once the mapping is finished. I wasn't present when my car was done, as Jules owned it then, so I can't be sure.

DW used to map without a wideband until they became attractively priced over the past 5 years or so and his results were always fine. A wideband only makes the arrival at the correct map easier/quicker and confirms what the RR operator knows from the RR output.

marcus1970

Original Poster:

1,217 posts

265 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
If the readings are next to useless then what's the point in even having them?

Might as well just weld up the holes and save ourselves a couple of hundred quid every 15000miles.

MB

Julian64

14,325 posts

284 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
Because once you've gone and got rid of them, all changes to your engine as it wears would require remapping. There is no such thing as an adaptive without a lamdba sensor.

mars

10,118 posts

244 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
In fact if Jools *didn't* use a wideband on mine when mapping, I might have some scope for improving fuel economy by sticking one into my exhaust system, and that can't be a bad thing. thumbup

mars

10,118 posts

244 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
A narrowband lambda is used more commonly on a production car where the AFR *is* at stoich.

I agree that there's no more point in having one on a Cerb than there is on a Caterham and yet Caterham still sells cars with narrowband lambdas installed too.

:search-me-icon:

marcus1970

Original Poster:

1,217 posts

265 months

Friday 27th April 2007
quotequote all
Cheers guys. Best to keep them in then - after all they show faults as well - I've now posted my next topic about a fault on lambda 1...

MB