Anyone know throttle settings on 4.5?
Discussion
Does anyone klnow what the throttle settings should be on the 4.5?
Just spent today working with Longbow and have strunggled to bring the adaptives down. Each bank was balanced at 4.5 airflow @ 950 rpm, with all cylinders being pretty equal. With throttle set @ 19, adaptives were -25 to -35. Ended up reducing throttles to 14.8 with adaptives showing -15% (+-5%). The adaptives would reduce to -9% when tickover was increased to 1250, but this was far too high, as the engine just appears happy ticking over @ 950rpm.
The air intake pipes were all off at the time of setting up.
Just spent today working with Longbow and have strunggled to bring the adaptives down. Each bank was balanced at 4.5 airflow @ 950 rpm, with all cylinders being pretty equal. With throttle set @ 19, adaptives were -25 to -35. Ended up reducing throttles to 14.8 with adaptives showing -15% (+-5%). The adaptives would reduce to -9% when tickover was increased to 1250, but this was far too high, as the engine just appears happy ticking over @ 950rpm.
The air intake pipes were all off at the time of setting up.
Edited by copilot on Sunday 29th April 21:33
Don't worry about the throttle pot settings just get the rev's around the 1,000 mark and the adaptives as close to 0 as possible.
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
As copilot says, we got the idle down to 950 and with a synchrometer, the airflow into all cylinders was reading approx 4.5 units which is exactly as it says in the servicing guide. The airflow was as balanced as possible, however, even with the pots set to 15 on both banks, the ECU was still trying to lean the fuelling as the adaptive were both running down to -15% on each side. I would guess that we'd have had to go down to 12 or so to iron out the adaptives, but as I've only got experience of the 4.2 I am a bit concerned we may be doing something wrong as I haven't heard of the 4.5 setup being that different from the 4.2. By the way, we didn't clamp the purge line, could this have been the cause?
longbow said:
As copilot says, we got the idle down to 950 and with a synchrometer, the airflow into all cylinders was reading approx 4.5 units which is exactly as it says in the servicing guide. The airflow was as balanced as possible, however, even with the pots set to 15 on both banks, the ECU was still trying to lean the fuelling as the adaptive were both running down to -15% on each side. I would guess that we'd have had to go down to 12 or so to iron out the adaptives, but as I've only got experience of the 4.2 I am a bit concerned we may be doing something wrong as I haven't heard of the 4.5 setup being that different from the 4.2. By the way, we didn't clamp the purge line, could this have been the cause?
I don't clamp the purge pipe either. I have the engine set as if it were in normal running conditions i.e. with all the trumpets and airboxes on etc.
I found that when I started doing this tuning that I got better results when I started from scratch. I backed off the idle screw and close the butterfly's. I start the car and watch the adaptives, get them both equal using/adjusting the link rod with equal but low readings for the T-pots. See what ya get and assess. Check Lambda readings are not over 1.5 and adjust rpm with idle screw. If adaptives rise or are still high then re-adjust the T-pots to compensate.
I found I had the same problem as you but then after re-adjusting and understanding I managed to get the readings bloody close to zero. Turned out the car accelerated really well but cruising was poor, so I replaced the T-pots and re-set to the same settings and all was great and smoother than ever.
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
and another trick i 'discovered' working on brooksie's car was disconnect the t-pot on the passenger side once the linkage has been set up to get both banks equal (need both connected for that, and the ecu will read the one just fine). then adjust the remaining connected t-pot to get the adaptives back in. The once they are good, connect the other t-pot and adjust it till its equal with the one that stayed connected.
this way you are only playing with one t-pot and if the banks are sucking equally it should work. if the bank without the t-pot won't come in... adjust the linkage rod to get it close.
don't know if this is the 'correct' way to do it, but it seemed to nail the adaptives on brooksies
and another trick i 'discovered' working on brooksie's car was disconnect the t-pot on the passenger side once the linkage has been set up to get both banks equal (need both connected for that, and the ecu will read the one just fine). then adjust the remaining connected t-pot to get the adaptives back in. The once they are good, connect the other t-pot and adjust it till its equal with the one that stayed connected.
this way you are only playing with one t-pot and if the banks are sucking equally it should work. if the bank without the t-pot won't come in... adjust the linkage rod to get it close.
don't know if this is the 'correct' way to do it, but it seemed to nail the adaptives on brooksies
I will check the readings again, now the pipes are back on. I presume the engine temperature make a difference, so should this be done when up to temperature? Both throttle pots are new. The adaptives did reduce when engine revs increased. Other than that the drive home from Longbows was fun!
copilot said:
I will check the readings again, now the pipes are back on. I presume the engine temperature make a difference, so should this be done when up to temperature? Both throttle pots are new. The adaptives did reduce when engine revs increased. Other than that the drive home from Longbows was fun!
Yes, get the engine warm/hot, it should be over 82/84 degrees.
SI-PEN said:
Don't worry about the throttle pot settings just get the rev's around the 1,000 mark and the adaptives as close to 0 as possible.
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
Simon, I notice you have short induction pipes. Do these have any impact on your settings by any chance? Also, what other changes did you have to make to fit these and does having short pipes make engine maintenance any easier?
copilot said:
SI-PEN said:
Don't worry about the throttle pot settings just get the rev's around the 1,000 mark and the adaptives as close to 0 as possible.
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
Mine is running at 16% throttle position rev's between 1000-1050 and adaptives at -5% and she runs very well and goes like stink!
If you can't get these adaptives down then look at you lambda sensor figures, they should be NO higher than 1.5v, if they are then the Lambda sensor is buggered.
Have you tried adjusting your idle stop, to get the rev's back down?
Simon, I notice you have short induction pipes. Do these have any impact on your settings by any chance? Also, what other changes did you have to make to fit these and does having short pipes make engine maintenance any easier?
Changes nothing on the settings that you make on the T-pots etc., the principles are the same...get the adaptives equal and close to zero!
The short induction pipes get rid of the long original cross over ones. The short ones allow you to see inside the V of the engine so some jobs are less hassle with these pipes. With the short pipes you'll need a replacement ECU chip so the engine still runs correctly, these are supplied with the pipes if you order from Track Car Solutions.
If you want a little more power and smoother delivery then you can pay more and have a performance chip to go with your short pipes. I went for the performance chip and the car is completely different to drive, a lot smoother and more responsive. Fitting is very straightforward and easy to do at home.
Si
methodwares said:
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
The adaptive graphs on both banks show 0% up to 500rpm, rising to -30%max @ 1000rpm immediately falling back to 0% by 1250 rpm and above.
e.g.@ 2150 rpm the adaptives show -2% and lamda's read 1.88
@ 915 rpm they show -27% with lambda's @ 1.17.
I'm confused.
copilot said:
methodwares said:
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
The adaptive graphs on both banks show 0% up to 500rpm, rising to -30%max @ 1000rpm immediately falling back to 0% by 1250 rpm and above.
e.g.@ 2150 rpm the adaptives show -2% and lamda's read 1.88
@ 915 rpm they show -27% with lambda's @ 1.17.
I'm confused.
that is confusing... are both t-pots holding their values and not bouncing too much? might be worth it to unhook one and see if its easier to get the adaptives to play correctly
copilot said:
methodwares said:
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
The adaptive graphs on both banks show 0% up to 500rpm, rising to -30%max @ 1000rpm immediately falling back to 0% by 1250 rpm and above.
e.g.@ 2150 rpm the adaptives show -2% and lamda's read 1.88
@ 915 rpm they show -27% with lambda's @ 1.17.
I'm confused.
Looks like your lambda sensors out of range, if it reads 1.7 or more then it should be considered faulty!
copilot said:
methodwares said:
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
The adaptive graphs on both banks show 0% up to 500rpm, rising to -30%max @ 1000rpm immediately falling back to 0% by 1250 rpm and above.
e.g.@ 2150 rpm the adaptives show -2% and lamda's read 1.88
@ 915 rpm they show -27% with lambda's @ 1.17.
I'm confused.
Looks like your lambda sensors out of range, if it reads 1.7 or more then it should be considered faulty!
SI-PEN said:
copilot said:
methodwares said:
what he said. and also bring the throttle up a bit and watch the adaptives at higher rpms as at idle they don't matter too much, well, not as much as like 2K rpm and such.
The adaptive graphs on both banks show 0% up to 500rpm, rising to -30%max @ 1000rpm immediately falling back to 0% by 1250 rpm and above.
e.g.@ 2150 rpm the adaptives show -2% and lamda's read 1.88
@ 915 rpm they show -27% with lambda's @ 1.17.
I'm confused.
Looks like your lambda sensors out of range, if it reads 1.7 or more then it should be considered faulty!
I've also the following data from screen shots
RPM Throttle lambda adaptive
914 / 14.8 / 1.15 / -27
980 / 14.8 / 1.1 / -28
2045 / 21.5 / 1.06 -5
2151 / 21 / 0.1 / -2
2355 / 22 / 1.1 / 0
2777 / 22.3 / 1.1 / 2
On these the lambda's look fine. I have noticed you do get an occasional rogue reading. Both pots are new and don't jump about and are holding fairly even. What I don't understand is why the adaptives fall into line as the revs increase.
Edited by copilot on Tuesday 1st May 21:10
Edited by copilot on Tuesday 1st May 21:16
Edited by copilot on Tuesday 1st May 21:17
I've been thinking about this...a lot!
The readings are suggesting oxygen starvation at rpm between 500 - 1250 only, after which the adaptives are ok, but the T-pot settings appear quite low. The first thin me and Longbow did last week end was to reduce the air going in the engine with the throttle stop wound off. The syncrometer readings were pretty even @ 6.75 on all cylinders. We reduced this to 4.5 as longbow's car is set to that, but his is a 4.2. I understand that my car has slightly larger diameter air inlets, so perhaps we should have left the setting where it was, which was 6.75 on the syncro. This would increase the airflow and then perhaps the adaptives would not need to reduce the fuel at tickover. I bet also that the throttle pots would then need to be increased from 14.8 to say 16-17 to get the adaptives back to zero.
Is there anything wrong with this thought process?
Does anyone know the syncro setting for their 4.5?
I accept it may be the lambda' but, need to rule out other possibilities before considering these.
The readings are suggesting oxygen starvation at rpm between 500 - 1250 only, after which the adaptives are ok, but the T-pot settings appear quite low. The first thin me and Longbow did last week end was to reduce the air going in the engine with the throttle stop wound off. The syncrometer readings were pretty even @ 6.75 on all cylinders. We reduced this to 4.5 as longbow's car is set to that, but his is a 4.2. I understand that my car has slightly larger diameter air inlets, so perhaps we should have left the setting where it was, which was 6.75 on the syncro. This would increase the airflow and then perhaps the adaptives would not need to reduce the fuel at tickover. I bet also that the throttle pots would then need to be increased from 14.8 to say 16-17 to get the adaptives back to zero.
Is there anything wrong with this thought process?
Does anyone know the syncro setting for their 4.5?
I accept it may be the lambda' but, need to rule out other possibilities before considering these.
copilot said:
I've been thinking about this...a lot!
The readings are suggesting oxygen starvation at rpm between 500 - 1250 only, after which the adaptives are ok, but the T-pot settings appear quite low. The first thin me and Longbow did last week end was to reduce the air going in the engine with the throttle stop wound off. The syncrometer readings were pretty even @ 6.75 on all cylinders. We reduced this to 4.5 as longbow's car is set to that, but his is a 4.2. I understand that my car has slightly larger diameter air inlets, so perhaps we should have left the setting where it was, which was 6.75 on the syncro. This would increase the airflow and then perhaps the adaptives would not need to reduce the fuel at tickover. I bet also that the throttle pots would then need to be increased from 14.8 to say 16-17 to get the adaptives back to zero.
Is there anything wrong with this thought process?
Does anyone know the syncro setting for their 4.5?
I accept it may be the lambda' but, need to rule out other possibilities before considering these.
The readings are suggesting oxygen starvation at rpm between 500 - 1250 only, after which the adaptives are ok, but the T-pot settings appear quite low. The first thin me and Longbow did last week end was to reduce the air going in the engine with the throttle stop wound off. The syncrometer readings were pretty even @ 6.75 on all cylinders. We reduced this to 4.5 as longbow's car is set to that, but his is a 4.2. I understand that my car has slightly larger diameter air inlets, so perhaps we should have left the setting where it was, which was 6.75 on the syncro. This would increase the airflow and then perhaps the adaptives would not need to reduce the fuel at tickover. I bet also that the throttle pots would then need to be increased from 14.8 to say 16-17 to get the adaptives back to zero.
Is there anything wrong with this thought process?
Does anyone know the syncro setting for their 4.5?
I accept it may be the lambda' but, need to rule out other possibilities before considering these.
On tick over at about 1000, my 4.5 cerbera was reading around the 5 mark on a syncrometer.
marcus1970 said:
Simon, you mentioned above that you had all the pipes on and the link rod still in situ, but that you backed off the idle screw to get the butterflys to close. How did you know that they were closed if you couldn't see them?
MB
MB
If you back off the idle screw and let the throttles return to their home position then the butterflies have to be closed, unless you have something trapped inside keeping them open or they are badly worn in which case you're stuffed anyway!
I know mine are closed as I've checked them when the pipes were off to use the synrometer.
Each bank measured equal with the link rod off, I reconnected the banks after adjusting the link rod to make sure that both banks remained closed, you can tell if one slightly moves by watching the throttle positions on laptop. Once I knew this was good I then replaced the pipes and started car to get warm. Now I know each bank is equal I just need to concentrate on getting the adaptives down.
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