Discussion
Considering I'm showing no sign of going out of Cerb ownership at the moment. I was wondering the other day about getting myself a late version red rose.
Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
This what TVR Power do in terms of the engine...
RAISED COMPRESSION RATIO £110.00
3 ANGLE VALVE SEAT £110.00
RE-WORKED AND POLISHED PORTS £660.00
BALANCED COMBUSTION CHAMBERS £220.00
OPTIMISED CAM TIMING £55.00
RE-SHIMMED CAM FOLLOWERS £55.00
NEW HEAD GASKETS £128.56
ECU EPROM CHIPS £75.00
ECU 95 / 97 OCTANE SWITCH £51.10
SUNDRIES £6.50
MAIN BEARING SMALL £84.45
BIG END BEARING £51.04
COMPLETE SEAL KIT £71.13
RE-HONED CYLINDER LINERS £55.00
PISTON RINGS £126.72
POLISHED CRANK SHAFT £55.00
SPARK PLUGS £37.76
OIL £16.25
FILTER £7.50
ANTIFREEZE £21.00
SUB TOTAL: £3317.01
VAT: £580.48
TOTAL: £3897.49
But doesnt the Red Rose also have a close ratio gearbox too??
RAISED COMPRESSION RATIO £110.00
3 ANGLE VALVE SEAT £110.00
RE-WORKED AND POLISHED PORTS £660.00
BALANCED COMBUSTION CHAMBERS £220.00
OPTIMISED CAM TIMING £55.00
RE-SHIMMED CAM FOLLOWERS £55.00
NEW HEAD GASKETS £128.56
ECU EPROM CHIPS £75.00
ECU 95 / 97 OCTANE SWITCH £51.10
SUNDRIES £6.50
MAIN BEARING SMALL £84.45
BIG END BEARING £51.04
COMPLETE SEAL KIT £71.13
RE-HONED CYLINDER LINERS £55.00
PISTON RINGS £126.72
POLISHED CRANK SHAFT £55.00
SPARK PLUGS £37.76
OIL £16.25
FILTER £7.50
ANTIFREEZE £21.00
SUB TOTAL: £3317.01
VAT: £580.48
TOTAL: £3897.49
But doesnt the Red Rose also have a close ratio gearbox too??
julian64 said:
Considering I'm showing no sign of going out of Cerb ownership at the moment. I was wondering the other day about getting myself a late version red rose.
Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
I bought a 2003 red rose car and would like to give you some disappointing news...Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
...my car has been to Julians at Trackcar and made 405bhp with short induction kit fitted and unlike all cerberas it didn't respond well to having more fuel put in the map. Infact Julian had to lean the fuel out to get the power up from 385ish to 405, which could explain why (in a previous thread) i said I could get 25mpg quite easily.
NickCCC i believe has a 2000 red rose and with the same mods as me more or less has made 440bhp. So the question is, why is mine down 30-35bhp?
We think the reason is TVR changed the cams on the 4.5 in 2001/2 which cost about 20-25bhp. I can't remember why they changed the cams and until we get them out and check we can't confirm that's the definite answer but we are quite confident.
A change of cams is on the cards for me later in the year to see what happens...
So my point really is, don't buy a red rose hoping to get 440bhp with a remap etc as you may be in a position like me where you only get 400, which as we all know is what a good 4.5 can get most days with remapping.
However i bought my car as it was the right car for me and the red rose was a bonus, plus i knew if it wasn't powerful enough, i wouldn't stop till it was
Tvr_Edd said:
julian64 said:
Considering I'm showing no sign of going out of Cerb ownership at the moment. I was wondering the other day about getting myself a late version red rose.
Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
I bought a 2003 red rose car and would like to give you some disappointing news...Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
...my car has been to Julians at Trackcar and made 405bhp with short induction kit fitted and unlike all cerberas it didn't respond well to having more fuel put in the map. Infact Julian had to lean the fuel out to get the power up from 385ish to 405, which could explain why (in a previous thread) i said I could get 25mpg quite easily.
NickCCC i believe has a 2000 red rose and with the same mods as me more or less has made 440bhp. So the question is, why is mine down 30-35bhp?
We think the reason is TVR changed the cams on the 4.5 in 2001/2 which cost about 20-25bhp. I can't remember why they changed the cams and until we get them out and check we can't confirm that's the definite answer but we are quite confident.
A change of cams is on the cards for me later in the year to see what happens...
So my point really is, don't buy a red rose hoping to get 440bhp with a remap etc as you may be in a position like me where you only get 400, which as we all know is what a good 4.5 can get most days with remapping.
However i bought my car as it was the right car for me and the red rose was a bonus, plus i knew if it wasn't powerful enough, i wouldn't stop till it was
Which is yours?
Julian, particularly after Edd's post, you know your current car and most/all things are right with it? Why buy something that 'could' have problems? It will cost you to upgrade, so why not spend some of that money (yes yes, I know you like to tinker, but..) with Austec/TCS etc and get the remap (either) and short induction (ACT or Whirlwind) and get your car up to Red Rose power? Better the devil you know etc
I thought about changing my car a while back for a newer one but decided not to for the very reasons I outline above :0
I thought about changing my car a while back for a newer one but decided not to for the very reasons I outline above :0
Mine is a factory red rose spec
As fubar says, if you like your car your best off sticking with it and going short induction and remap and you may see up to 420bhp...
...however it would be a shame if you went and bought a new car and then it could only made 400....
...just trying to offer some help before you could make an expensive mistake
As fubar says, if you like your car your best off sticking with it and going short induction and remap and you may see up to 420bhp...
...however it would be a shame if you went and bought a new car and then it could only made 400....
...just trying to offer some help before you could make an expensive mistake
I'm with Fubes as well on this, spend the difference on your car rather than buying another which you don't know. I have this same dilemma with mine, occasionally glance in the classifieds and :scratchin:. However having blown large having my chassis out and done when I first got the car, I am reluctant to get a car that has not, no matter how well it has been cared for. Instead I am setting a £5-6k (maybe even a bit more) budget of mods to treat my car to over the next 12 months. If costs can kep reasonable then this might include a supercharger or if that is too big and costly then at least some silly Nitrous, then some serious shocks and better brakes.
touching cloth said:
I'm with Fubes as well on this, spend the difference on your car rather than buying another which you don't know. I have this same dilemma with mine, occasionally glance in the classifieds and :scratchin:. However having blown large having my chassis out and done when I first got the car, I am reluctant to get a car that has not, no matter how well it has been cared for. Instead I am setting a £5-6k (maybe even a bit more) budget of mods to treat my car to over the next 12 months. If costs can kep reasonable then this might include a supercharger or if that is too big and costly then at least some silly Nitrous, then some serious shocks and better brakes.
I hope you don't do any of this before Aug, I have my second run against yourself and wouldn't like to look at the back of your car for 3/4 mile
grahamn said:
touching cloth said:
I'm with Fubes as well on this, spend the difference on your car rather than buying another which you don't know. I have this same dilemma with mine, occasionally glance in the classifieds and :scratchin:. However having blown large having my chassis out and done when I first got the car, I am reluctant to get a car that has not, no matter how well it has been cared for. Instead I am setting a £5-6k (maybe even a bit more) budget of mods to treat my car to over the next 12 months. If costs can kep reasonable then this might include a supercharger or if that is too big and costly then at least some silly Nitrous, then some serious shocks and better brakes.
I hope you don't do any of this before Aug, I have my second run against yourself and wouldn't like to look at the back of your car for 3/4 milePah, I don't need all that just to see off some pesky 4.5
Don't worry there is no chance of it being done for August, which is a shame
Edited by touching cloth on Tuesday 19th June 12:36
Tvr_Edd said:
julian64 said:
Considering I'm showing no sign of going out of Cerb ownership at the moment. I was wondering the other day about getting myself a late version red rose.
Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
NickCCC i believe has a 2000 red rose and with the same mods as me more or less has made 440bhp. So the question is, why is mine down 30-35bhp?Does anyone actually know how much work goes into a red rose to actually make it worth the extra cost. Does anyone know whether the TVR power upgrade to a red rose is actually the same in car engine terms?
Paul at Austec 'I think' had 6 different cam grinds now for the AJP engine depending on what you want and what you have, so it may be worth giving Paul a call to discuss what the options are for you if cam upgrades are the route you are going to take.
With an 'Austec rebuild' but keeping the std exhuast and std air filter, mine with a tight engine, made 428 on the day Nicks made 440, so 12bhp off 440, but I needed exhaust and airflow mods, which should make a difference.
Mr F
A.G. said:
More dissappointing news.
I discovered that my 4.5 Red rose specced by me and bought new from the factory in 04 has had no port work done whatsoever.
On the plus side it did have the switchable fuel button which instead of 95/97 should have been marked sh1t fuelling/even sh1tter fuelling.
Booby prize available to the first person who finds this surprising.
no surprise there, mine probably doesn't have the ports either I discovered that my 4.5 Red rose specced by me and bought new from the factory in 04 has had no port work done whatsoever.
On the plus side it did have the switchable fuel button which instead of 95/97 should have been marked sh1t fuelling/even sh1tter fuelling.
Booby prize available to the first person who finds this surprising.
Wasn't there a lot of muttering at the Brands day that the SP exhaust was one of the loudest when measured?
Not a lot of point in having an extra 20bhp if you have to throttle it by knocking off 50bhp with a set of track day silencers.
Back on the Red rose theme. Is the bottom end of a red rose better balanced?
Hopefully they spent a bit more time with a file on the bottom end.
Not a lot of point in having an extra 20bhp if you have to throttle it by knocking off 50bhp with a set of track day silencers.
Back on the Red rose theme. Is the bottom end of a red rose better balanced?
Hopefully they spent a bit more time with a file on the bottom end.
No not at all Jules, I was the one with the SP at Brands (only one there I think) and got a 102, slightly above SP's target of 98 but then I did not get the whole system which has a linked decat and I am running individual decat pipes which I think are reported to run a bit louder than linked ones. NickCCC and BossCerb both running the full SP and both were getting on at the Ring when we were there with no real problems and that was a strict 100db (I think Nick got refused once but they were sticking the thing right up the exhaust).
My initial concern at Brands, and probably the conversation that you heard, was that I had measured at 110db right after fitting and would therefore have been well over the Brands limit (not that it would have bothered them that night) - it obviously quietened down a lot with use and once it sooted up or whatever, down 8db's to the 102 that I got (albeit at 3500rpm). As a complete system it is probably the most track friendly system out there.
My initial concern at Brands, and probably the conversation that you heard, was that I had measured at 110db right after fitting and would therefore have been well over the Brands limit (not that it would have bothered them that night) - it obviously quietened down a lot with use and once it sooted up or whatever, down 8db's to the 102 that I got (albeit at 3500rpm). As a complete system it is probably the most track friendly system out there.
Edited by touching cloth on Tuesday 19th June 15:51
touching cloth said:
No not at all Jules, I was the one with the SP at Brands (only one there I think) and got a 102, slightly above SP's target of 98 but then I did not get the whole system which has a linked decat and I am running individual decat pipes which I think are reported to run a bit louder than linked ones. NickCCC and BossCerb both running the full SP and both were getting on at the Ring when we were there with no real problems and that was a strict 100db (I think Nick got refused once but they were sticking the thing right up the exhaust).
My initial concern at Brands, and probably the conversation that you heard, was that I had measured at 110db right after fitting and would therefore have been well over the Brands limit (not that it would have bothered them that night) - it obviously quietened down a lot with use and once it sooted up or whatever, down 8db's to the 102 that I got (albeit at 3500rpm). As a complete system it is probably the most track friendly system out there.
I have to say from what I saw it was the most professional looking of the aftermarket setups.My initial concern at Brands, and probably the conversation that you heard, was that I had measured at 110db right after fitting and would therefore have been well over the Brands limit (not that it would have bothered them that night) - it obviously quietened down a lot with use and once it sooted up or whatever, down 8db's to the 102 that I got (albeit at 3500rpm). As a complete system it is probably the most track friendly system out there.
Edited by touching cloth on Tuesday 19th June 15:51
But back to the bottom end of a rose. Whats in a rose? That which we would call a rose, would, by any other name smell as sweet?
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