Red Rose, is it worth the extra?
Red Rose, is it worth the extra?
Author
Discussion

high52kojak

Original Poster:

505 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
My 4.5 is going for an engine rebuild due to timing chain issues, I am thinking that while its out it would be rude not to have some extra work done, i.e. the red rose upgrade work, higher compression etc. Is it worth the money for the extra power, would it be noticable on the road?
I am not sure where its going yet for the build so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

marcus1970

1,217 posts

265 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
high52kojak said:
My 4.5 is going for an engine rebuild due to timing chain issues, I am thinking that while its out it would be rude not to have some extra work done, i.e. the red rose upgrade work, higher compression etc. Is it worth the money for the extra power, would it be noticable on the road?
I am not sure where its going yet for the build so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
What sort of timing chain issues?

How did it manifest that an engine rebuild was in order?

MB

BLUETHUNDER

7,881 posts

290 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
It slipped or broke.Think it bent the valves.

high52kojak

Original Poster:

505 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
Yeah tensioner and or one of the guides failed, we think causing the chain to break. Engine is still in the car which is at PPC, until engine is out and stripped I wont know to what extent the damage is. I cant see how it would of escaped damage to pistons, valves etc though. Paul at PPC is recommending Jason at Straight six for re build, obviously without stripping it he cant see exactly what it needs, but has given me a figure for full rebuild, crank out and polished, new shells, new valves, guides, buckets, chain gear etc.

HarryW

16,037 posts

299 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
Feel for you, I don't know the companies you mention for the rebuild work so can't comment directly except to say do you have any referals for their AJP8 work as they are not familiar to me, thats not to say they can't or haven't done an AJP8 before confused.
As for making it a RR, I actaully think that all AJP8's should be at level as standard, get it done hehe.

trackcar

6,453 posts

256 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
Jason would be Jason Clegg, I think he's probably ok to rebuild your engine winksmile

high52kojak

Original Poster:

505 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
Yeah Jason Clegg, ex TVR factory if I am correct, heard a few good reports about Castle race engines also.

HarryW

16,037 posts

299 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
trackcar said:
Jason would be Jason Clegg, I think he's probably ok to rebuild your engine winksmile
Thats cleared that up then hehe, any thoughts on the merits of going to RR compression whilst at it then joolz confused

trackcar

6,453 posts

256 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
on the basis that a std engine seems to be on it's limit at 415hp and a red rose 430hp (ish, average, I know a few choice cars make more than this etc etc) I'd say if you're a numbers man go for it, it's going to be more expense but it should be a VERY fast cerbie once done smile

high52kojak

Original Poster:

505 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
Thats it then choice is made, best get some more hours stuck in at work!

HarryW

16,037 posts

299 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
In some ways getting it RR after market is a good move as some(lot?) of the factory ones were seriously out of cc balance front to rear, almost as if a 12 year old yts trainee was let loose hehe.

volospian

494 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
I was talking to Paul earlier and he told me he had a cerb 4.5 in with a snapped timing chain. Bad luckfrown

Still, it'll be worth a rebuild wink

plasticman

908 posts

281 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
I think you will find the only difference between a standard and a RR is the compression and a chip so should not cost too much more .

Mr Freefall

2,323 posts

288 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
high52kojak said:
Yeah tensioner and or one of the guides failed, we think causing the chain to break. Engine is still in the car which is at PPC, until engine is out and stripped I wont know to what extent the damage is. I cant see how it would of escaped damage to pistons, valves etc though. Paul at PPC is recommending Jason at Straight six for re build, obviously without stripping it he cant see exactly what it needs, but has given me a figure for full rebuild, crank out and polished, new shells, new valves, guides, buckets, chain gear etc.
You may want to get the crank balanced, and the flywheel balanced, and the block checked, incase you need a line bore.

All these will add to the cost, and may be the point where you just go for a good rebuild, against the headworks etc etc.

Like me an Harry, we went the whole hog in the end, and you can quickly spend alot of money, but the end result is fantastic engine.

Good luck what ever route you take

Mr F

Mars

10,138 posts

244 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
I firmly believe every engine build should start with a full dynamic balancing of the crank/flywheel/clutch cover and end-over-end balancing and matching of the rods, and then match-weighting of the pistons. It's not an expensive thing to have done (maybe 200 quid for a V8) but the difference is like night and day.

Worth checking the crank for blueing and maybe even having it polished?

Block deck height needs to be measured for overall height and true. I'm not sure whether liner protrusion is as important on the AJP8, but I suspect it is - they should protrude within tolerance and all should be consistent.

Head should be flat and pocket area consistent across all. It's not hard to achieve but as others have said, it seems not to be the case for many AJP8 engines which is a dreadful shame considering what a great piece of work it can be.


If you had unlimited budget, who is regarded as the best AJP8 engine builder?

HarryW

16,037 posts

299 months

Wednesday 30th April 2008
quotequote all
plasticman said:
I think you will find the only difference between a standard and a RR is the compression and a chip so should not cost too much more .
Are you sure there isn't supposed to be a bit of extra porting and CC the chambers too confused.
Agree what's been said about a proper balancing, both my Tivs I've had rebuilt and both I've had fully balanced and lightened as part of that process, if you are going to do it do it properly thumbup, the difference is night and day imhe.

350Matt

3,910 posts

309 months

Thursday 1st May 2008
quotequote all
high52kojak said:
Yeah tensioner and or one of the guides failed, we think causing the chain to break. Engine is still in the car which is at PPC, until engine is out and stripped I wont know to what extent the damage is. I cant see how it would of escaped damage to pistons, valves etc though. Paul at PPC is recommending Jason at Straight six for re build, obviously without stripping it he cant see exactly what it needs, but has given me a figure for full rebuild, crank out and polished, new shells, new valves, guides, buckets, chain gear etc.
Owch

At miles was this?

Matt

high52kojak

Original Poster:

505 posts

227 months

Thursday 1st May 2008
quotequote all
35000

trackcar

6,453 posts

256 months

Thursday 1st May 2008
quotequote all
All the red rose engines I have seen have had a bit of porting work .. the short side radius onto the back of the valve is usually smoothed (though some head castings seem to have this as std) and sometimes a flapper is run down the ports .. it's not much but it seems to help.

plasticman

908 posts

281 months

Thursday 1st May 2008
quotequote all
There was no measureable difference between the ports on my red rosed heads and a pair of standard heads so I was not very happy . I was later at the factory and they were trying to sell me some tuscan racer heads . I noticed there were unported and said so , I was told they tried porting them but got no more power and that adding material to the ports was a benefit .