Time To Get Legal Or Bite The Bullet?
Discussion
We all know the Cerbera can and often will bite the hand
that feeds it, but it would seem that I am now perhaps paying
for negligence of the people who sold me the car.
Have a read of the following and let me know what you
all think......
When I was shopping for cars, I spent a lot of time researching
the history of each car, from speaking with past servicing dealers,
to TVR themselves checking everything was in order, I still decided
to take an independent with me to give it the all clear.
Cover all angles was my idea., however, all along I thought the
problem with a private or non TVR garage deal, was not being
able to check areas you can't see without giving a car a full
service and this has perhaps led me to where I am now.
I was told by the sellers, the car had received a new slave cylinder
by them and apart from the drivers mat being a sticky mess, nothing else
appeared to be to out of shape.
There was a minor roughness on the engine, but a broken manifold was
given as the likely cause by those in the know and the car was declared
to be a very good buy.
I left having secured an excellent deal that had saved me a minimum of
3k and perhaps as much as 5k, however, on the way home the engine
started to miss (which it had never done on the lengthy test drive we gave it)
and suddenly, I produced a firework display out the back.
To cut a long story short, the car was stopped and then towed home
before being flat bedded to those good people at TopCats Racing.
The cause was traced to the lambda sensors being cross wired and
neat fuel was being pumped down one side that was over working
and into the exhaust.
Result, new sensors and cats that were if not fried before, were now.
Still, I'd saved a stack of money and the garage had said no warranty
given the deal I'd struck, so I swallowed it TopCats did their stuff
and left with a car that appeared fine.
Had much happy motoring since, but a whine in the gearbox started
10 days ago, so back to the good folks at TopCats we went again.
Easily diagnosed as main shaft rear bearing...however.
When the box came out, it did so with the use of fingers to un do
loose bolts that had not been secured by the sellers.
The box was low on oil and the lay shaft and input shaft were both
damaged as a result of the above.
With the work completed, it was on to a 42k service and I wanted
everything covered, so that included tappets.
That now has uncovered a shot cam and buckets and suddenly the
money I saved has gone.
I am now being told it is against the law to sell a car without any
cover and they must have known about much of the above or
perhaps have even caused most of it, would I have a case?
I will have the car back and running as it should be thanks to
the excellent work of TopCats Racing and I am told the car will serve me well from here on in,
( although when I get it back with TVR being closed for 2 weeks from today, is another matter...)
If all that involves the money I saved being spent, so be it, but I still wonder about
my rights against the sellers given the facts?
Comments and any factual legal advice is appreciated...
that feeds it, but it would seem that I am now perhaps paying
for negligence of the people who sold me the car.
Have a read of the following and let me know what you
all think......
When I was shopping for cars, I spent a lot of time researching
the history of each car, from speaking with past servicing dealers,
to TVR themselves checking everything was in order, I still decided
to take an independent with me to give it the all clear.
Cover all angles was my idea., however, all along I thought the
problem with a private or non TVR garage deal, was not being
able to check areas you can't see without giving a car a full
service and this has perhaps led me to where I am now.
I was told by the sellers, the car had received a new slave cylinder
by them and apart from the drivers mat being a sticky mess, nothing else
appeared to be to out of shape.
There was a minor roughness on the engine, but a broken manifold was
given as the likely cause by those in the know and the car was declared
to be a very good buy.
I left having secured an excellent deal that had saved me a minimum of
3k and perhaps as much as 5k, however, on the way home the engine
started to miss (which it had never done on the lengthy test drive we gave it)
and suddenly, I produced a firework display out the back.
To cut a long story short, the car was stopped and then towed home
before being flat bedded to those good people at TopCats Racing.
The cause was traced to the lambda sensors being cross wired and
neat fuel was being pumped down one side that was over working
and into the exhaust.
Result, new sensors and cats that were if not fried before, were now.
Still, I'd saved a stack of money and the garage had said no warranty
given the deal I'd struck, so I swallowed it TopCats did their stuff
and left with a car that appeared fine.
Had much happy motoring since, but a whine in the gearbox started
10 days ago, so back to the good folks at TopCats we went again.
Easily diagnosed as main shaft rear bearing...however.
When the box came out, it did so with the use of fingers to un do
loose bolts that had not been secured by the sellers.
The box was low on oil and the lay shaft and input shaft were both
damaged as a result of the above.
With the work completed, it was on to a 42k service and I wanted
everything covered, so that included tappets.
That now has uncovered a shot cam and buckets and suddenly the
money I saved has gone.
I am now being told it is against the law to sell a car without any
cover and they must have known about much of the above or
perhaps have even caused most of it, would I have a case?
I will have the car back and running as it should be thanks to
the excellent work of TopCats Racing and I am told the car will serve me well from here on in,
( although when I get it back with TVR being closed for 2 weeks from today, is another matter...)
If all that involves the money I saved being spent, so be it, but I still wonder about
my rights against the sellers given the facts?
Comments and any factual legal advice is appreciated...
All I can say is comiserations.
When buying mine I thought about inspections etc. but decided they couldn't really tell me much so I bought a well known car from this site (from Flasher as it happens).
This is all very well but my real point is that I worry about the standard of service that some people give and the total lack of recourse if it goes wrong.
Like you, I had the tappets checked even though they didn't really need doing just to see if the top end looked ok, for peace of mind really. The question is did they check thoroughly? How do I know my engine won't expire due to something that should have been spotted when the tappets were done?
The real problem here is the variable quality of servicing establishments and, even though I have not been bitten yet, I for one share your concern.
Rob.
When buying mine I thought about inspections etc. but decided they couldn't really tell me much so I bought a well known car from this site (from Flasher as it happens).
This is all very well but my real point is that I worry about the standard of service that some people give and the total lack of recourse if it goes wrong.
Like you, I had the tappets checked even though they didn't really need doing just to see if the top end looked ok, for peace of mind really. The question is did they check thoroughly? How do I know my engine won't expire due to something that should have been spotted when the tappets were done?
The real problem here is the variable quality of servicing establishments and, even though I have not been bitten yet, I for one share your concern.
Rob.
I'm stuck with the same dilemma. If I buy from a dealer, he'll sting me, if I go private and the thing explodes, I get stung worse.
The only law protecting you if you buy a dud from a dealer is that it has to be "fir for purpose" - if it concks out on the way home, with no warranty, take it back, cancel the cheque and leave them with the keys. Its just if it goes after 6 months...
The only law protecting you if you buy a dud from a dealer is that it has to be "fir for purpose" - if it concks out on the way home, with no warranty, take it back, cancel the cheque and leave them with the keys. Its just if it goes after 6 months...
I'm no lawyer but I don't think your vendors (presuming dealer) are legally obliged to provide a warranty on cars they sell. That said, it should be fit for purpose and should last for a reasonable period before requiring repairs. Quite what that period would be is debatable on a car like the Cerb.
Obviously with a warranty, it's included in the price for a fixed period. If you were informed that no warranty was included (due to the sale price) then that forms part of your sales contract. Wear and tear would not normally be covered and I guess that would apply to your cams, warranty or not. Had the vendor known about the problem then you have a good case to chuck the car back at them. Proving that point would be virtually impossible, and not that easy to diagnose during an inspection without stripping the cam covers.
The gearbox may well be a different matter. Boxes can leak oil when upended and maybe this is the case here when the slave was fixed. IMO it points to negligence on the part of the vendor. From what you've said it appears that repairs were done 'on the cheap' and a few corners have been cut.
All in all I thinks it's a case of buyer beware, if it's any consolation, you will undoubtedly end up with a car that will run for ages without further problem. Hope it all gets sorted shortly.
Mike
Obviously with a warranty, it's included in the price for a fixed period. If you were informed that no warranty was included (due to the sale price) then that forms part of your sales contract. Wear and tear would not normally be covered and I guess that would apply to your cams, warranty or not. Had the vendor known about the problem then you have a good case to chuck the car back at them. Proving that point would be virtually impossible, and not that easy to diagnose during an inspection without stripping the cam covers.
The gearbox may well be a different matter. Boxes can leak oil when upended and maybe this is the case here when the slave was fixed. IMO it points to negligence on the part of the vendor. From what you've said it appears that repairs were done 'on the cheap' and a few corners have been cut.
All in all I thinks it's a case of buyer beware, if it's any consolation, you will undoubtedly end up with a car that will run for ages without further problem. Hope it all gets sorted shortly.
Mike
Thanks for the feedback so far guys.
I understand about the cams, that while they may have
known, proving it would be another, so that area I may
have no case, however the Lambda sensors / Cats / Gear
box work can be pointed at them without any trouble,
so perhaps this is the area that interests me most?
I didn't even get home before the car was all but on
fire, but I swallowed it and the cost then due to the
"No Warranty" part in the sale contract.
However, now just 8 weeks later I find the gear box
is down to them as well, it makes me want to fight
them legally if there is a case to answer?
I am 100% certain the car will be excellent once this
work has been done (especially with it being as good
as it was with these problems brewing...) and we will
live happily ever after!
Thanks again for your thoughts.
I understand about the cams, that while they may have
known, proving it would be another, so that area I may
have no case, however the Lambda sensors / Cats / Gear
box work can be pointed at them without any trouble,
so perhaps this is the area that interests me most?
I didn't even get home before the car was all but on
fire, but I swallowed it and the cost then due to the
"No Warranty" part in the sale contract.
However, now just 8 weeks later I find the gear box
is down to them as well, it makes me want to fight
them legally if there is a case to answer?
I am 100% certain the car will be excellent once this
work has been done (especially with it being as good
as it was with these problems brewing...) and we will
live happily ever after!
Thanks again for your thoughts.
jeremyc said:I'll be sending a letter to them today as I feel
Have you taken it up with the sellers at all?
anything from here should be in writing.
Also, I have just spoken with a solicitor who says
my best bet is to go via the small claims court, as any
solicitor's fees would make the exercise pointless.
They feel I would have a case for negligence and also
that they sold a car that could have potentially caused
a fatality (Had the fuel ignited in the exhaust on the way home)
I know that in all probability with the law as it is,
the bad guy will win, but for £110 more, I'll give it a shot
and see where we get to.
It does however make a kind of mockery of the chap who you took to 'look over the vehicle' for you. I would have thought he should take the first pasting as having checked the car it doesn't even get you home!
It also makes me wonder why a car with lambdas crossed over would drive ok through the test drive. Either one lambda was knackered so the car was driving both banks off a single working lambda, or both were functioning which I find great difficulty believing the car would pass the notice of a seasoned cerbie driver let alone an engineer. Maybe someone cleared the adaptive map prior to your visit, which could probably even up the engine for a while.
And a spotted cracked manifold would probably be making the engine run weak, and could hide a lot of problems.
You did the most to protect yourself by buying from a stealer and taking an engineer along.
Time to get legal I think.
It also makes me wonder why a car with lambdas crossed over would drive ok through the test drive. Either one lambda was knackered so the car was driving both banks off a single working lambda, or both were functioning which I find great difficulty believing the car would pass the notice of a seasoned cerbie driver let alone an engineer. Maybe someone cleared the adaptive map prior to your visit, which could probably even up the engine for a while.
And a spotted cracked manifold would probably be making the engine run weak, and could hide a lot of problems.
You did the most to protect yourself by buying from a stealer and taking an engineer along.
Time to get legal I think.
I'd still be inclined to give the seller a call before you get all legal if you haven't had any contact yet. Otherwise you have no idea of their side of the story; they may be willing to help you our of your predicament.
If not, then you can consider the legal route. One telephone call might just save you some more money!
Spend time communicating with the seller rather than garnering the wide range of opinions here!
If not, then you can consider the legal route. One telephone call might just save you some more money!
Spend time communicating with the seller rather than garnering the wide range of opinions here!
gazzab said:I would say I bought a car having done everything possible to cover myself.
are you sure you didnt buy a lemon because it was cheap? I am sure you have a case against the garage for some cash but it does look like you should have been more careful ie the car had problems when you looked at it. I assume you only paid about 12 or 13 for it though?
I had the car's history extensively checked, speaking with all the
TVR dealerships that had serviced it and TVR themselves about
the car's history.
That all came up glowing, and with only 2 main owners and one
dealership that had it registered for a while, they were also good
signs on a 7 year old Cerbera as I am sure you would agree?
In addition, I paid to have the car inspected, but none
of these would allow for whether gear box bolts were
done up or sensors being cross wired etc!
However, the people selling the car were none of the
above and that was perhaps the only risk area in my
mind and yes, I agree it has bitten my wallet.
It's very easy to say you get what you paid for, but
perhaps not when the faults have resulted from poor
workmanship?
I still feel had the car been presented to the standard
it should have, the car would have been the excellent
buy everyone said it was.
The car has an excellent history and once this work has
been carried out, it will return to that state and be
the car I bought it for.
My view on a private car sale would be to check the goods before you buy, because generally goods brought from a private seller do not have to be free from faults. Thats why you took an independant with you to confirm the faults.
However, if the seller tells you the goods are in good working order, and they turn out to be faulty, then you may be able to take action on the grounds that the goods did not match their description. It is an offence for a private seller to sell an unroadworthy car (interpretation here or what )
Was this person a private indivdual or a person who sells goods as part of their business sometimes posing as a private seller, because then the customer has fewer rights. This is a criminal offence, so if you suspect that a private seller is actually in business you could inform your local Trading Standards Department, which can take action against the seller.
From the web..
"You may be entitled to compensation if:- the contract has been broken (breach of contract). For example, if the seller had described the goods as being in good working order and they turned out to be faulty. However, in practice, it may be difficult to prove that the seller said this, unless it is in a written advert or there was a witness; or someone has been injured by an unroadworthy vehicle. In such circumstances you should report the matter to your local Trading Standards Department; or the seller knowingly made a false statement about the goods in order to persuade you to buy them.
The amount of compensation you would get would depend upon the seriousness of the injury or problem. You should always take legal advice before deciding whether to accept an offer of compensation for personal injury.
hope this helps
J
However, if the seller tells you the goods are in good working order, and they turn out to be faulty, then you may be able to take action on the grounds that the goods did not match their description. It is an offence for a private seller to sell an unroadworthy car (interpretation here or what
) Was this person a private indivdual or a person who sells goods as part of their business sometimes posing as a private seller, because then the customer has fewer rights. This is a criminal offence, so if you suspect that a private seller is actually in business you could inform your local Trading Standards Department, which can take action against the seller.
From the web..
"You may be entitled to compensation if:- the contract has been broken (breach of contract). For example, if the seller had described the goods as being in good working order and they turned out to be faulty. However, in practice, it may be difficult to prove that the seller said this, unless it is in a written advert or there was a witness; or someone has been injured by an unroadworthy vehicle. In such circumstances you should report the matter to your local Trading Standards Department; or the seller knowingly made a false statement about the goods in order to persuade you to buy them.
The amount of compensation you would get would depend upon the seriousness of the injury or problem. You should always take legal advice before deciding whether to accept an offer of compensation for personal injury.
hope this helps
J
ScoobySnack said:Thanks ScoobySnack.
hope this helps
J
The car was actually bought from a large garage / car centre
that generally has about 30 cars for sale.
My main angle of fight appears to be these.
1) They sold me a car that was potentially lethal.
2) The standard of their work to prepare the car for sale
has caused more repairs to be needed.
I know the cams are a lost battle, (they were the originals after all!) but the gearbox / sensors
and resulting repairable damage maybe not.
All in all I'd also rather someone learn from my problems.
I'd also rather the history of my car not be hidden and the
standard of great care to maintain it be known to any future owners
as I intend to always have a Cerbera, this was my toe in the water
so to speak and one day, I will buy a newer or even new one if they
still make them then!
Graham - have you actually spoken to these people on the phone or paid a visit? It seems logical to me that you're most likely to have an argument for compensation for the gearbox damage as this would appear to be a direct result of negligence on their part when they carried out the slave cylinder work. My approach would be to start off being nice as in my experience that has generally got me what I want. If that gets you nowhere then take 'em to court. What if the gearbox bolts had dropped off whilst you were on the move?!
Washy
Washy
Far as I know a 'private' seller can sell any rubbish he likes and there is absolutely no comeback on him whatsoever. 'Sold as seen'
However GCerbera didn't do that he bought it from a dealer. He seemed to do everything sensible to make sure he didn't end up with a lemon, so it seems a bit unfair to suggest he was unwise doesn't it?
However GCerbera didn't do that he bought it from a dealer. He seemed to do everything sensible to make sure he didn't end up with a lemon, so it seems a bit unfair to suggest he was unwise doesn't it?
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