Power Steering woes & Braking success
Discussion
Having accumulated a whole load of stuff to fit to the cerb at the weekend, I took the plunge on Saturday with mixed success.
Overhauled all the Brake Calipers, and fitted EBC Yellow Stuffs plus new rear discs. The Handbrake shoes I had did not fit so that was a pain, but the handbrake does now work well. Cleaned all the fron disc holes out with battery drill, and after some spirited driving I checked the temperature of the discs all round and everything nice and even from side to side. So Far so good.
Fixed the washer jets, as the hose was cable tied too tightly, so they now work brilliantly.
Changed the Power Steering pump, as it was failing from time to time when hot. Bled system and now does not work at all. The reservoir did need topping up after initial bleed and the fluid does warm up slowly. Jacked up and bled again, still no good.
Not a good practice, but just in case the vanes were stuck in the rotor from being on the shelf too long I bled it at 4000 rpm to see if that would shift anything. The Reservoir overflowed!
So my best guess is that the inlet hose is breaking down internally, and the newer pump is displaying the original fault from cold having more draw on it. With the inlet hose crushed in the return hose is filling the reservoir and hey presto. Cavitation as those in the know seem to call it.
So I will be replacing both hoses tonight and see waht happens. I can't believe it is the braided pressure hoses at fault, and don't want to believe it is the new pump either.
Help needed. Cavitation aside, when I hold steering on full lock, I hear no Power Steering noise at all, but the thing is I cannot recall if I used to. Can anyone tell me if their Cerb makes the usual noises on Full lock, or not. Also, does anyone know if there is a bleed point on the steering rack for when normal methods fail? ETA does anyone know if there is a strainer, because if the hose is breaking down I could have a blockage.
All help and opinions will be gratefully recieved.
Thanks also to Dave (99 speed 6), whose Sunday Lunch I interrupted for advise
Overhauled all the Brake Calipers, and fitted EBC Yellow Stuffs plus new rear discs. The Handbrake shoes I had did not fit so that was a pain, but the handbrake does now work well. Cleaned all the fron disc holes out with battery drill, and after some spirited driving I checked the temperature of the discs all round and everything nice and even from side to side. So Far so good.
Fixed the washer jets, as the hose was cable tied too tightly, so they now work brilliantly.
Changed the Power Steering pump, as it was failing from time to time when hot. Bled system and now does not work at all. The reservoir did need topping up after initial bleed and the fluid does warm up slowly. Jacked up and bled again, still no good.
Not a good practice, but just in case the vanes were stuck in the rotor from being on the shelf too long I bled it at 4000 rpm to see if that would shift anything. The Reservoir overflowed!
So my best guess is that the inlet hose is breaking down internally, and the newer pump is displaying the original fault from cold having more draw on it. With the inlet hose crushed in the return hose is filling the reservoir and hey presto. Cavitation as those in the know seem to call it.
So I will be replacing both hoses tonight and see waht happens. I can't believe it is the braided pressure hoses at fault, and don't want to believe it is the new pump either.
Help needed. Cavitation aside, when I hold steering on full lock, I hear no Power Steering noise at all, but the thing is I cannot recall if I used to. Can anyone tell me if their Cerb makes the usual noises on Full lock, or not. Also, does anyone know if there is a bleed point on the steering rack for when normal methods fail? ETA does anyone know if there is a strainer, because if the hose is breaking down I could have a blockage.
All help and opinions will be gratefully recieved.
Thanks also to Dave (99 speed 6), whose Sunday Lunch I interrupted for advise
Edited by Buffoon on Tuesday 26th August 12:47
Island 4x4 off e-bay. Landrover pump.
Needs grinding down / filing on casting where pulley attaches (if you look at you old pump it will have been ground, this is definitely the same pump.
Not sure on the AJP8 arrangement, but the other issue is the left hand hinge bolt hole on the pump is not tapped. You could tap out and use a larger bolt but I got round it by grinding down a nut and fitting on the back (sorry, no pictures, may take some tonight). I would have preferred to fit one single long hinge holt through it, but there is no room to get it in.
You could change the backing plates over but the needle rollers in the rotor bearing drop out and are a pain, so not recommended.
If it sounds complex, it isn't really, and at £36 quid including delivery it's worth the effort HOWEVER.... Don't buy one yet, at least not until I have proved my new pump is OK - I Hope.. having ground it down it will be difficult to send back.
Needs grinding down / filing on casting where pulley attaches (if you look at you old pump it will have been ground, this is definitely the same pump.
Not sure on the AJP8 arrangement, but the other issue is the left hand hinge bolt hole on the pump is not tapped. You could tap out and use a larger bolt but I got round it by grinding down a nut and fitting on the back (sorry, no pictures, may take some tonight). I would have preferred to fit one single long hinge holt through it, but there is no room to get it in.
You could change the backing plates over but the needle rollers in the rotor bearing drop out and are a pain, so not recommended.
If it sounds complex, it isn't really, and at £36 quid including delivery it's worth the effort HOWEVER.... Don't buy one yet, at least not until I have proved my new pump is OK - I Hope.. having ground it down it will be difficult to send back.
Well, after 2 1/2 hrs replaced feed hose.
Still the same.
Found some debris in the oil I dumped
I have to assume it has come out of the rack / spool valve assembly, so will be sending photo to the guys at Greenwich for opinions
Noticed when I turn the steering wheel without engine running, it sounds like air moving around the 'spool valve', but cannot get rid of it.
Also notice that even with car jacked up the steering is marginally harder with engine running, not easier.
Thoroughly Pizzed Orf
With regards to filing or grinding down PS pump, a dodgy picture below shows the area ground down on my old pump. Not very good but can't be bothered to take another
Off for a bath, so Night Night All!
Still the same.
Found some debris in the oil I dumped
I have to assume it has come out of the rack / spool valve assembly, so will be sending photo to the guys at Greenwich for opinions
Noticed when I turn the steering wheel without engine running, it sounds like air moving around the 'spool valve', but cannot get rid of it.
Also notice that even with car jacked up the steering is marginally harder with engine running, not easier.
Thoroughly Pizzed Orf
With regards to filing or grinding down PS pump, a dodgy picture below shows the area ground down on my old pump. Not very good but can't be bothered to take another
Off for a bath, so Night Night All!
Buffoon said:
And did those 3 locator screws in the triangle rotor come out easily enough? I've tried ensrewing mine with a flathead driver and its not budging. A soak overnight in WD40 is the next idea.
Keep taking thise pics too mate. Invaluable.
If you are talking about the Pully screws, no problem at all.
Can't quote the sizes but need to hold the rotor in place with large Allen Key and undo the bolts with the smaller Allen key. Managed to get mine off and do it on the bench but very tricky. Better by far to do in situ, which I will be doing tonight when I put the old pump back. Not sure what you are doing with a Flathead, did something fall off the top shelf onto your bonce?
Can't quote the sizes but need to hold the rotor in place with large Allen Key and undo the bolts with the smaller Allen key. Managed to get mine off and do it on the bench but very tricky. Better by far to do in situ, which I will be doing tonight when I put the old pump back. Not sure what you are doing with a Flathead, did something fall off the top shelf onto your bonce?
Thanks to him with the country smelling under-garments. System should be self-bleeding (after a few lock to locks).
Guys at Greenwich have told me my rack is knackered.
They have not touched it before as far as I know, but have been mentioned on here many times. With PH policy on naming and shaming I have no real idea on their abilities, but I have to have faith in someone.
Looks like I'll be on my pushbike for a while
Might still swap pump back tonight, as it is such a pleasurable task.
Guys at Greenwich have told me my rack is knackered.
They have not touched it before as far as I know, but have been mentioned on here many times. With PH policy on naming and shaming I have no real idea on their abilities, but I have to have faith in someone.
Looks like I'll be on my pushbike for a while
Might still swap pump back tonight, as it is such a pleasurable task.
Well, Well, Well! Despite being told my rack was falling to bits I went ahead and changed the pump back to the old one.
Before doing so I took the backs off both pumps to check the rotor stator clearances (not sure if stator right term but you get my drift), and check for debris.
The clearances on the old pump were much better than on the new pump. See picture
Anyway, after borrowing a couple of needle rollers of the new pump as old one had 2 mysteriously absent, I reassembled and refitted. Hey Presto! It works. In all fairness to the boys at Greenwich the photo was difficult to evaluate, and maybe the rack is getting tired but I do not believe it was part of a seal.
I can only advise then that if buying a Landrover pump, ensure it is genuine ZF part if available. The back plate did not proclaim to be ZF, and there are visual differences to the rotor. That does not mean buy TVR, just be carefull.
Another thing to bear in mind is to make sure you bleed the system lock to lock several times without engine running before you go the next stage, as this too will cause unnecessary wear.
I hope this post will save someone else the unnecessary inconvenience of 3 nights in the bath smelling like a gearbox
Now the front brakes are juddering like crazy, Here we go again
Before doing so I took the backs off both pumps to check the rotor stator clearances (not sure if stator right term but you get my drift), and check for debris.
The clearances on the old pump were much better than on the new pump. See picture
Anyway, after borrowing a couple of needle rollers of the new pump as old one had 2 mysteriously absent, I reassembled and refitted. Hey Presto! It works. In all fairness to the boys at Greenwich the photo was difficult to evaluate, and maybe the rack is getting tired but I do not believe it was part of a seal.
I can only advise then that if buying a Landrover pump, ensure it is genuine ZF part if available. The back plate did not proclaim to be ZF, and there are visual differences to the rotor. That does not mean buy TVR, just be carefull.
Another thing to bear in mind is to make sure you bleed the system lock to lock several times without engine running before you go the next stage, as this too will cause unnecessary wear.
I hope this post will save someone else the unnecessary inconvenience of 3 nights in the bath smelling like a gearbox
Now the front brakes are juddering like crazy, Here we go again
The clearnce rotor to Stator in those pumps shouldn't make much difference, due to teh fact that the vanes are pressed out with oil pressure. What you need to be looking at is rotor and stator to body clearnace and the surface of the vanes and the running surface of the stator themselves.
ridds said:
The clearnce rotor to Stator in those pumps shouldn't make much difference, due to teh fact that the vanes are pressed out with oil pressure. What you need to be looking at is rotor and stator to body clearnace and the surface of the vanes and the running surface of the stator themselves.
Have not checked rotor to body yet, was racing against time last night, i.e. get finished before the darn mozzies bite my backside. Agree with what you say but I believe the fluid displacement is not from chamber to chamber but driven down the length of the rotor. If that makes sense. Either way, it's fixed and variation in product tolerances is clear to see.caduceus said:
Good to hear you got it sorted Buff.
Just a quick question. Whilst disassembling everything on mine, I noticed the PAS fluid was more brown than red. Does that mean one of the hoses is breaking down from inside?
If inlet hose soft it is worth replacing. (5/8" I/D). Return hose needs to be routed smoothly with no sharp bends (1/2" I/D I think)Just a quick question. Whilst disassembling everything on mine, I noticed the PAS fluid was more brown than red. Does that mean one of the hoses is breaking down from inside?
Have read somewhere that all hoses should be replaced every 20,000 miles (not a TVR recommendation). Unless it is convenienet to do so, I would not bother, just keep an eye out for leaks and aereated fluid.
Have also read that feed and return hoses should be no longer than 16" to avoid cavitation. Feed hose on speed six is nearer 30", so needs to be in good condition.
Brown fluid I suspect is just in need of changing / purging, then monitoring, unless you have other problems.
One tip I did pick up was to place a magnet in the fluid bottle. The article suggested suspending from string from the cap, though I expect just dropping it in and retrieving with another magnet will do, as the magnet will be too big to cause problem but string could. It supposedly cleans particles out of the fluid and if monitored at regular intervals can act as a health check. Not tried it myself.
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