Looking To Buy A TVR Cerbera. Which Way To Turn?!?
Discussion
Hi guys... new to this forum... so wanted to say hi to all.
I have used piston heads for a long time now - buying and selling private cars. And have used this forum to try to seek out answers to quite a few questions in the past.
I have just recently sold my high spec'd Skyline R33 GTR and am looking to buy a TVR Cerbera. A car I have always loved and wanted to own. I have come accross a few for sale that appeal to me within my price range and am unsure as to which way to turn.
I obviously have the choice of the AJP6 4.0 6-cyl Speed 6 engine, the AJP8 4.2 V8 engine and the AJP8 4.5 V8 engine. I have narrowed the choice down to either the Speed 6 or the AJP8 4.5 engine.
The AJP8 4.5 engine is the obvious choice to go for power. But being used to larger 6-cyl engines from previous cars, the Speed 6 also appeals as the power delivery will be totally different to the AJP8 unit and more of what I am used to.
I have read all about the crankshaft problems relating to the early AJP8 4.2 engines... which do not apply to the 4.5 units. So am split minded between the two other units, reliability is the key for me. Which of the two units (AJP8 4.5 and Speed 6) is the more reliable unit?
One particular Cerbera I have expressed interest in has the AJP8 4.5 engine. It has covered 70k miles and is due a service, but has good service history to date with a lot of the general TVR niggles previously sorted out - no rebuild history however. It is at a fairly good price, but I am obviously concerned about the high mileage on the engine. A well priced Cerbera, could very well turn into a very expensive Cerbera after a few short and painful miles. I am mainly after your thoughts on the above vehicle. Would an experienced TVR enthusiast steer well clear of this example in theory?
Another option I have come accross is a fairly high priced TVR Cerbera with the Speed 6 engine. Having had a rebuild only 3000 miles ago or so. This also appeals to me, as a recent rebuild to me oozes "reliability"... but with a Speed 6 engine... is this the case?!?
The difference between the two cars is £6000 cash. This could effectively pay for a rebuild on the first example if ever needed I guess.
If you could also enlighten me about any other common problems associated with Cerbera's - or re-calls that should have been performed - or other things that Cerb's should have had done to them - this would also help me out, as will come in useful when viewing and choosing a Cerb for my own.
Just after your thoughts, opinions, knowledge and experience on the above really guys. Any feedback or help would be greatly appreciated.
And sorry about the essay!
All the Best,
Kyle.
I have used piston heads for a long time now - buying and selling private cars. And have used this forum to try to seek out answers to quite a few questions in the past.
I have just recently sold my high spec'd Skyline R33 GTR and am looking to buy a TVR Cerbera. A car I have always loved and wanted to own. I have come accross a few for sale that appeal to me within my price range and am unsure as to which way to turn.
I obviously have the choice of the AJP6 4.0 6-cyl Speed 6 engine, the AJP8 4.2 V8 engine and the AJP8 4.5 V8 engine. I have narrowed the choice down to either the Speed 6 or the AJP8 4.5 engine.
The AJP8 4.5 engine is the obvious choice to go for power. But being used to larger 6-cyl engines from previous cars, the Speed 6 also appeals as the power delivery will be totally different to the AJP8 unit and more of what I am used to.
I have read all about the crankshaft problems relating to the early AJP8 4.2 engines... which do not apply to the 4.5 units. So am split minded between the two other units, reliability is the key for me. Which of the two units (AJP8 4.5 and Speed 6) is the more reliable unit?
One particular Cerbera I have expressed interest in has the AJP8 4.5 engine. It has covered 70k miles and is due a service, but has good service history to date with a lot of the general TVR niggles previously sorted out - no rebuild history however. It is at a fairly good price, but I am obviously concerned about the high mileage on the engine. A well priced Cerbera, could very well turn into a very expensive Cerbera after a few short and painful miles. I am mainly after your thoughts on the above vehicle. Would an experienced TVR enthusiast steer well clear of this example in theory?
Another option I have come accross is a fairly high priced TVR Cerbera with the Speed 6 engine. Having had a rebuild only 3000 miles ago or so. This also appeals to me, as a recent rebuild to me oozes "reliability"... but with a Speed 6 engine... is this the case?!?
The difference between the two cars is £6000 cash. This could effectively pay for a rebuild on the first example if ever needed I guess.
If you could also enlighten me about any other common problems associated with Cerbera's - or re-calls that should have been performed - or other things that Cerb's should have had done to them - this would also help me out, as will come in useful when viewing and choosing a Cerb for my own.
Just after your thoughts, opinions, knowledge and experience on the above really guys. Any feedback or help would be greatly appreciated.
And sorry about the essay!
All the Best,
Kyle.
I wouldnt rule out a 4.2 so quickly - the crank issues only affected early cars and should all be sorted by now.
4.5 give the most power and most opertunity to add power
speed 6 cars are softer (suspension) and more suited to touring but still mighty sports cars
These cars at an age now where you should buy on condition and history once you have identified what your priorities are....
Incidentally this is a much asked question - you might find the search facility useful...?
Welcome and good luck.
4.5 give the most power and most opertunity to add power
speed 6 cars are softer (suspension) and more suited to touring but still mighty sports cars
These cars at an age now where you should buy on condition and history once you have identified what your priorities are....
Incidentally this is a much asked question - you might find the search facility useful...?
Welcome and good luck.
Thanks for your reply Pete. I would search and have done, but my questions were quite specific.
I suppose it would have been better asking GENERALLY what mileage would the Speed 6 and the AJP8 4.5 engines be able to cover before letting go on you and needing a rebuild?
What are your thoughts on a AJP8 4.5 engine having covered 70k miles with no previous rebuild? As in the above example. Standard spec... apart from de-CAT pipe.
Would a remap be recommended on all TVR's - to aid reliability?
The 4.5 may be the way to go in terms of suspension setup, as I do prefer a stiffer ride - to a softer one. Well... am used to that.
I suppose it would have been better asking GENERALLY what mileage would the Speed 6 and the AJP8 4.5 engines be able to cover before letting go on you and needing a rebuild?
What are your thoughts on a AJP8 4.5 engine having covered 70k miles with no previous rebuild? As in the above example. Standard spec... apart from de-CAT pipe.
Would a remap be recommended on all TVR's - to aid reliability?
The 4.5 may be the way to go in terms of suspension setup, as I do prefer a stiffer ride - to a softer one. Well... am used to that.
Kyle.
I went the SpeedSix way not long ago, but i don´t think you should bother too much. Nobody can tell you, when a rebuild is due. There are cars with 40k miles on them with no rebuild, then you might find guys who had 3 in that time.
Speaking of sound and power, the SpeedSix delivers, believe me.
James Agger has a low mileage SpeedSix coming in this week. Maybe worth a call. I trust him. If he says, the car is sound, then it is. I bought mine of him.
Regards,
Björn.
I went the SpeedSix way not long ago, but i don´t think you should bother too much. Nobody can tell you, when a rebuild is due. There are cars with 40k miles on them with no rebuild, then you might find guys who had 3 in that time.
Speaking of sound and power, the SpeedSix delivers, believe me.
James Agger has a low mileage SpeedSix coming in this week. Maybe worth a call. I trust him. If he says, the car is sound, then it is. I bought mine of him.
Regards,
Björn.
Firstly I have to say that I think you're being foolish by ruling out the 4.2. All the evidence shows that the bad batch of cranks were only found on about the first couple of hundred cerberas made, after which all V8's were fitted with the larger journal bearing crank. This is certainly something that has been blown out of all proportion- in fact I dont recall a single mention of a crank failure last year. Not only that, but the chances are that any of the older cars out there that might have been at risc of a crank failure will either have failed (and in which case will have been replaced- all the better for you) or are very unlickley to ever fail now.
There are a few paople on here that have had both v8 versions, so they can give you a more objective comparsion between the two, but on the whole the advantages of having the 4.5 seem to largley to do with pub bragging rights. Which is fair enough I suppose, though many a rolling road day has shown that a standard 4.2 and a non-tweeked 4.5 put out virtually identical figures (in fact some 4.2's were actually a whisker ahead). If you want to tune though, the 4.5 is still probably the way to go, for now at least.
As for the 70k cerbera, well it is one of the higher mileage ones about, but there certainly are a few with a lot more. SimonSparrow on here I believe holds the record with a (4.2) with 138k without any rebuild. For me the mileage on the engine wouldn't be a big worry; what I would be concerned with is how easy the car is going to be to sell on later with even more miles on it. Thats assuming of course that you'd ever want to sell it!
HTH
There are a few paople on here that have had both v8 versions, so they can give you a more objective comparsion between the two, but on the whole the advantages of having the 4.5 seem to largley to do with pub bragging rights. Which is fair enough I suppose, though many a rolling road day has shown that a standard 4.2 and a non-tweeked 4.5 put out virtually identical figures (in fact some 4.2's were actually a whisker ahead). If you want to tune though, the 4.5 is still probably the way to go, for now at least.
As for the 70k cerbera, well it is one of the higher mileage ones about, but there certainly are a few with a lot more. SimonSparrow on here I believe holds the record with a (4.2) with 138k without any rebuild. For me the mileage on the engine wouldn't be a big worry; what I would be concerned with is how easy the car is going to be to sell on later with even more miles on it. Thats assuming of course that you'd ever want to sell it!
HTH
Obviously when it comes to selling, you may have that old buying sentiment on mileage crop up, and that will affect its future value, but it also means you can buy low. So the net effect isn't really an issue.
What is an issue is the history.
So long as you can see it has been loved and cared for, I think it'd be fine.
Look after it, and it will look after you.
As mentioned, there's little between standard 4.2s and 4.5s, obviously mapped 4.5s are in and around the 400bhp mark.
Buy on condition, simple as that really.
Get the right colour too, purple ones are the fastest apparently.
What is an issue is the history.
So long as you can see it has been loved and cared for, I think it'd be fine.
Look after it, and it will look after you.
As mentioned, there's little between standard 4.2s and 4.5s, obviously mapped 4.5s are in and around the 400bhp mark.
Buy on condition, simple as that really.
Get the right colour too, purple ones are the fastest apparently.
A 70K miles cerbera with no rebuild is clearly getting closer to needing a rebuild....
But ulitmately it is pot luck. Look after em well, buy a known car etc and you improve your chances.
A refresh on the engine could cost say 4K.
I wouldnt go S6 but would advise a 4.2 if you want to get your best bang for your buck.
I have blown up two 4.5s. I always warmed them up carefully. But unfortunately my first one had been bodged to sell and the second one was just one of them things.
Both rebuilt by APM.
But ulitmately it is pot luck. Look after em well, buy a known car etc and you improve your chances.
A refresh on the engine could cost say 4K.
I wouldnt go S6 but would advise a 4.2 if you want to get your best bang for your buck.
I have blown up two 4.5s. I always warmed them up carefully. But unfortunately my first one had been bodged to sell and the second one was just one of them things.
Both rebuilt by APM.
I drove both a 2000 4.5 LW and an early 1997 4.2 and based on how they drive and feel I went for the 4.2 which is build number 268 and still on itasa original crank I would think this is the small crank in it but it has never been replaced and I guess if it was going to go it would have gone already.
The 4.2's are IMHO more raw and vicious at the top end of the rev range and also smoother pottering around town. Also as previous posts have stated the early 4.2 is also a bit lighter than the 4.5 LW (ironic I know)
Best thing to do is to drive some different ones.
The 4.2's are IMHO more raw and vicious at the top end of the rev range and also smoother pottering around town. Also as previous posts have stated the early 4.2 is also a bit lighter than the 4.5 LW (ironic I know)
Best thing to do is to drive some different ones.
Hi guys. Some very good information and opinions there guys. Thanks for taking the time to share and chip in.
I have to be honest I am probably going to leave the high mileage 4.5 Cerbera, which is this example: -
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/931029.htm
And am still interested in the rebuilt Speed 6, which is this example: -
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/773397.htm
Opinions on these two cars?!?
But I honestly cannot decide as to whether I would prefer a Speed 6 or an AJP8 4.2/4.5. From the sound of it I would probably prefer the suspension ride of an AJP and after looking at some vids on youtube, I think I prefer the AJP engine sound / exhaust note. But, at present not been able to find an advert for an AJP that I have fallen in love with.
Just out of interest... being an engineer myself... from an engineering point of view what makes the AJP engines more reliable than the Speed 6 engines? And what common powertrain / drivetrain problems are present on each of the two setups? Anything to look out for in particular?
Thanks a lot guys.
Kyle.
I have to be honest I am probably going to leave the high mileage 4.5 Cerbera, which is this example: -
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/931029.htm
And am still interested in the rebuilt Speed 6, which is this example: -
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/773397.htm
Opinions on these two cars?!?
But I honestly cannot decide as to whether I would prefer a Speed 6 or an AJP8 4.2/4.5. From the sound of it I would probably prefer the suspension ride of an AJP and after looking at some vids on youtube, I think I prefer the AJP engine sound / exhaust note. But, at present not been able to find an advert for an AJP that I have fallen in love with.
Just out of interest... being an engineer myself... from an engineering point of view what makes the AJP engines more reliable than the Speed 6 engines? And what common powertrain / drivetrain problems are present on each of the two setups? Anything to look out for in particular?
Thanks a lot guys.
Kyle.
Imho, The owner of the 4.5 is claiming wildly unrealistic power figures so this would raise questions as to whether how knowledgeable an owner he is. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION FROM THE WORDING OF THE ADVERT I DON'T KNOW THE SELLER OR THE CAR (disclaimer mode off)
The S6 looks a very nice car, but like Gazzab said it's a bit over priced but not 10k overpriced. If i was looking for a S6 I would definately be looking at that one but I if you do go for it remember you MAY have to factor in the costs of a rebuild.
The S6 looks a very nice car, but like Gazzab said it's a bit over priced but not 10k overpriced. If i was looking for a S6 I would definately be looking at that one but I if you do go for it remember you MAY have to factor in the costs of a rebuild.
Edited by markh1 on Thursday 12th March 10:03
In the 'normal' world of cars, a 1.6 engined Golf is seen as the poor cousin of a 2.0 Golf, that doesn't apply in the Cerbera world, the 4.2 is not the poor cousin.
Don't rule out a 4.2. the magical thing about the 4,2 and the 4.5 is that they both have the unique TVR AJPV8 engine. In standard form the 2 emgines do have different power characteristics. The 4.5 feels the more torquier of the two, whilst the 4.2 is a lot quicker revving and has a lovely power band 'push in the back' that kicks in around the 3k mark. The main difference is that the 4.5 can be modded - re-mapped and short induction kit - for about £1k to bring it up to around the 400Hp mark, but it doesn't make it feel significantly quicker, and in fact the remap and induction kit seems to take away the differences between the 2 engines, and makes the 4.5 feel more like a 4.2.
So just treat the 4.2 and the 4.5 as the same car, it's a Cerbera, and buy the best one you can.
Don't rule out a 4.2. the magical thing about the 4,2 and the 4.5 is that they both have the unique TVR AJPV8 engine. In standard form the 2 emgines do have different power characteristics. The 4.5 feels the more torquier of the two, whilst the 4.2 is a lot quicker revving and has a lovely power band 'push in the back' that kicks in around the 3k mark. The main difference is that the 4.5 can be modded - re-mapped and short induction kit - for about £1k to bring it up to around the 400Hp mark, but it doesn't make it feel significantly quicker, and in fact the remap and induction kit seems to take away the differences between the 2 engines, and makes the 4.5 feel more like a 4.2.
So just treat the 4.2 and the 4.5 as the same car, it's a Cerbera, and buy the best one you can.
markh1 said:
Imho, The owner of the 4.5 is claiming wildly unrealistic power figures so this would raise questions as to whether how knowledgeable an owner he is. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION FROM THE WORDING OF THE ADVERT I DON'T KNOW THE SELLER OR THE CAR (disclaimer mode off)
I got the same feeling when reading that advert.Edited by markh1 on Thursday 12th March 10:03
Have you been out to test drive any of the cars? When i bought mine(4.2) i had narrowed it down to 2, one had millions of history and the other had little(altho i spoke to 2 previous owners), turned out the 1 with all the history was a bit of a dog so i ended up with other!!
The guy with the higher mileage Cerbera 4.5 took the car in from a part exchange deal on a car that he did have. Hasn't owned it long. Hence why he probably doesn't know much about it. Going to steer clear of that one for now. And do agree that the Speed 6 example is well overpriced considering - but the owner does know his stuff and is a TVR enthusiast, that doesn't justify the purchase of the car for that price though.
The search continues. Going to look at a couple over the weekend.
The search continues. Going to look at a couple over the weekend.
Firstly, that exhaust on the AJP 4.5 look like the blue flame (official dealer fitment) that I had on my Cerb.
Too loud, unless your a hooligan and only want to frighten old ladies and get the rest of us a bad name???
(It's now in the shed to be sold and I have an ACT one fitted!)
He has no idea how to sell a Cerbera??? Or does he??
Blown up his Scooby as well I see! Hmmm!!!
Anyway, I have a remapped 1997 4.5 with standard long induction, which is well over 400bhp now.
The remapping definately gives a noticable difference in performance.
So much so I'd it's too fast for the road!
That's just being honest!
So a 4.2 would not be noticibly different and you should not put off a 4.2 if you think it is in any way lacking. That Top Gear Cerbera shoot video out was a 4.2!
BUT the remap has made the whole engine smoother lower down and the power delivery is just one constant pull! So a 4.5 without a re-map can be a bit of a lumpy old thing around town.
However it will spin the rear wheel in third gear on a damp road without even trying with 1" of throttle movement!
Are you sure you want one of these cars???
I was very tempted to get a S6 as it supposedly has softer suspension and the steering has slightly more turns lock-to-lock.
Suspension? I now have Gaz Golds and you can make it as soft or hard as one wants. So not an issue.
Steering? Mine is very direct and like a Kart! You have to drive these cars all the time!
The engine? AJP is a flat plane crank. That means it is like two 4 cylinder motorbike engines cast together in a V. Very distinctive noise, nothing like a yank V8, or indeed a Chimera.
Personally I don't think I'd buy that AJP without an independent inspection by one of the experts like Rob Ingleby. Nothing to do with the miles, just what you SHOULD do! A few hundered quit well spent!
Looks to me like he has done some miles, but don't want to pay for the 12,000 miles service that is looming up!
The S6 interior rules it out for me, as although it looks th esame as mine. Burgrndy and grey, I have a black stering wheel and a black suede dash to stop the refelections.
Keep looking??
Uprated adjustable shocks. Already remaped. Suspension rebushed. Chassis fully protected.
OH the list just goes on!
Or just get the 4.5 and buy an ACT quiet (its not quiet!!) exhaust!
Too loud, unless your a hooligan and only want to frighten old ladies and get the rest of us a bad name???
(It's now in the shed to be sold and I have an ACT one fitted!)
He has no idea how to sell a Cerbera??? Or does he??
Blown up his Scooby as well I see! Hmmm!!!
Anyway, I have a remapped 1997 4.5 with standard long induction, which is well over 400bhp now.
The remapping definately gives a noticable difference in performance.
So much so I'd it's too fast for the road!
That's just being honest!
So a 4.2 would not be noticibly different and you should not put off a 4.2 if you think it is in any way lacking. That Top Gear Cerbera shoot video out was a 4.2!
BUT the remap has made the whole engine smoother lower down and the power delivery is just one constant pull! So a 4.5 without a re-map can be a bit of a lumpy old thing around town.
However it will spin the rear wheel in third gear on a damp road without even trying with 1" of throttle movement!
Are you sure you want one of these cars???
I was very tempted to get a S6 as it supposedly has softer suspension and the steering has slightly more turns lock-to-lock.
Suspension? I now have Gaz Golds and you can make it as soft or hard as one wants. So not an issue.
Steering? Mine is very direct and like a Kart! You have to drive these cars all the time!
The engine? AJP is a flat plane crank. That means it is like two 4 cylinder motorbike engines cast together in a V. Very distinctive noise, nothing like a yank V8, or indeed a Chimera.
Personally I don't think I'd buy that AJP without an independent inspection by one of the experts like Rob Ingleby. Nothing to do with the miles, just what you SHOULD do! A few hundered quit well spent!
Looks to me like he has done some miles, but don't want to pay for the 12,000 miles service that is looming up!
The S6 interior rules it out for me, as although it looks th esame as mine. Burgrndy and grey, I have a black stering wheel and a black suede dash to stop the refelections.
Keep looking??
Uprated adjustable shocks. Already remaped. Suspension rebushed. Chassis fully protected.
OH the list just goes on!
Or just get the 4.5 and buy an ACT quiet (its not quiet!!) exhaust!
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