Mclarens faster lap than 458

[barefoot]

I see in todays Autocar test the Maclaren does a faster lap than the 458 previously tested and without a few damp patches would have been quicker still. I realise they still prefer the 458 but it does show that the suspension problems the Mac had in other lap tests did hamper it's times. It did it in 1 min 8.6 sec the 458 in 1min 8.9. As for outright acceleration 0-150 15.3 for the MP4-12C and 16.2 for the 458. In the same issue it has a small piece on the F1 and it's 0-150 was 12.8 YIKES!

[barefoot]

In fairness it was a full road test feature that Autocar always does with new models, it is Autocar that chose to use the 458 in comparison.

[StuartMcKay]

coyft said:

McLaren are starting to sound desperate. Please Autocar let us have another go we told all our prospective customers this car would trounce the 458.

Agreed. Mclaren lost out to the Ferrari at Rockingham then comeback in with the chief test driver and go faster when nobody is around! Shocking...

Also, in the Autocar test the Mclaren was 0.3 of a second faster round the lap YET is 0.9 of a second faster up to 150mph so does that therefore mean that it is indeed slower in the corners?

I posted the below on another thread titled 'Supercar Shootout' which I think some people agreed with:

what I said:

Of course it did!! I would expect that car to go faster with the man who was instrumental in perfecting the performance characteristics of the driving it, with better tyres and fixed suspension than Ben Collins.

The ONLY way I think we could ever have a true answer as to which car is faster would be to put both Chris Goodwin in the Mclaren and Dario Benuzzi in the Ferrari and at a randomly picked test track and see which is faster!! No excuses about suspension or tyres or whatever else Mclaren can dream up....simply which is the faster car!!! Never going to happen tho....

I posted this also on Fifth Gear 458 vs MP4 thread and standby this opinion:

what I said:

The MP4 is that it's a great piece of engineering and certainly not a bad first attempt in to this market place! BUT Mclaren always seek clinical perfection in everything that they do. The clinical way that they have gone about this car, leaving it devoid of passion/emotion/soul in this car seems to be it's major downside.

If in the Market to buy either of these 2 cars 90% of people wouldn't purchase the Mclaren over the Ferrari on looks! It's certainly the first bland £160k + supercar I have seen....so it has to be down to how it makes you feel when you get in and drive it and after reading the many reviews in the motoring press it seems that the Ferrari has it well beaten in that department too.

The biggest mistake McLaren seems to have made though is not trusting their potential customers driving ability. Not having an option to turn everything off (excluding the abs) is a massive oversite on Mclarens part and something that clearly needs revising! For 2 professional racing drives to spin it (Tiff in a massive way) proves this.

I really wanted to love the Mclaren but the clinicalness of the thing means that I don't aspire to own one like I do the Ferrari and a customers aspirations of ownership in this market place one of the most influential parts when buying this type of car.

I still want to drive one (albeit slightly less after last night..) but my heart and my head say I'd buy the Ferrari everytime.

[BelfastBoy]

I think the problem is that Autocar were, for want of a better phrase, the most taken in by / receptive to Maclaren's advance hyperbole about the MP4. In the cold light of day, they've given the car a very positive and enthusiastic review, but with the clear implication that it's not the class leader (that would be the 458). So, in a few short months, the MP4 has gone from being the car that would eclipse the competition on road and track, to being a highly creditable first attempt that's not too far away from greatness. Talk about damning with faint praise! The only area the MP4 wins is its insane straight line speed. Remember Top Gear's drag race between the F1 and Veyron? I'd like to see one on the same road, between the F1 and MP4. The F1 would win over distance, but I'd like to see how close it would be.

Still want one though, especially in Azure Blue with black wheels. i just want a 458 that little bit more. (So I'd just have both, with the Ferrari as a convertible whenever that version finally appears).

[richard300]

I wouldn't want one simply because of the association with Ron Dennis, wouldn't have a SLR or an F1 either for the same reasons.

Of course I couldn't possibly afford any of them (a fact that might <if all the planets fell into line> even make Ron Dennis smile).

[pattyg]

I remember reading all the early rave reviews of the Macca where every tester said it was in a different league to the 458. Funny how since testing the car those opinions have changed markedly.

What exactly were those initial reviews based on - hearsay? Shame if you read them and rushed out to put your deposit down.

[Stig]

The only truly subjective test of this nature would be between customer cars - not factory press fleet.

[Dr G]

I'd *still* take the Lamborghini over either O_o

[TonyHetherington]

coyft said:

Only time will tell, I suspect in the "real world" the MP4 will be the class leader, on the road and on track. I've no doubt the 458 is better at power sliding and makes a better noise, both of these traits no doubt gives it a bit more of that subjective "character" journalists mention.

I agree. I think the real word driving will be a very different scenario. EVO did talk about how it's great at 10/10ths and great at 6/10ths, but not so great at 8/10ths but I wonder whether the likes of you and I would notice how "not great" (if you see what I mean)? Whatever the reviews say, it is a stunning car and I can't wait to see one

[Harry Riddles]

Who could possibly care about 0.3 seconds, apart from the manufacturers. Driver skill will then determine which will be faster on a track with such a small gap, I definitely expected much more of the Macca.

MP4 is a clinical product, from a brand that prides itself on automotive perfection and game changing performance, which on the first lap times in the magazines and Fifth Gear I didn't see.

McLaren have certainly been over ambitious with challenging Ferrari and Lambo, both in performance and commercially. McLaren want to sell most of their cars abroad, I think the MP4 could be a success in the UK but elsewhere I don't think it will really catch on. A billion pound mistake if you ask me.

[Another Fluffer]

Dr G said:

I'd *still* take the Lamborghini over either O_o

Good choice

[CIE560]

Another Fluffer said:

Dr G said:

I'd *still* take the Lamborghini over either O_o

Good choice

I'll happily pootle over the line 15 minutes after everyone in a loud streak of lime green loveliness.

[shanes]

Another Fluffer said:

Dr G said:

I'd *still* take the Lamborghini over either O_o

Good choice

[Auburn852]

barefoot said:

I see in todays Autocar test the Maclaren does a faster lap than the 458 previously tested and without a few damp patches would have been quicker still. I realise they still prefer the 458 but it does show that the suspension problems the Mac had in other lap tests did hamper it's times. It did it in 1 min 8.6 sec the 458 in 1min 8.9. As for outright acceleration 0-150 15.3 for the MP4-12C and 16.2 for the 458. In the same issue it has a small piece on the F1 and it's 0-150 was 12.8 YIKES!

What no one seems to be talking about is the difference that the Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres make. It seems McLaren have fitted the OPTIONAL Corsa tyres to all their press cars - a fact which Autocar buried away in a picture caption on the first page of the road test. The Corsa tyres undoubtedly make a difference to the time - and it should be more than 0.3secs. Corsa tyres have half the tread depth of a standard P Zero, as fitted to the 458. Hence the McLaren's MUCH slower lap time on the wet lap, by more than 6 secs I think. The same issues as 911 GT3s with Michelin Cup tyres - would you want to drive those cars on a wet road? If the McLaren is supposed to be the quicker car, then it is only if: you drive it at Autocar's dry lap and have specified the optional Corsa tyres. If you drive it anywhere else (Bedford - EVO, Rockingham - CAR), then the MP4 is slower than the 458 even when the Macca is running the Corsa tyres. And don't go anywhere near the Autocar's wet lap if you want to drive quickly.

A more fair comparison would be 458 and MP4 on the same tyres, not one on standard tyres and one on optional sticky rubber.

Let's wait and see what lap time the 458 Scuderia/CS version does when it finally appears. For sure, Ferrari have to beat the MP4's time with that car?

[Chafford1]

The MP4's wet times in the Autocar test appear much slower than the 458's - 1min 19.1sec compared to 1min 12.7sec - however given that the MP4's dry times are faster, I suspect this is a printing error.
I've asked Autocar to confirm.

[Auburn852]

Chafford1 said:

The MP4's wet times in the Autocar test appear much slower than the 458's - 1min 19.1sec compared to 1min 12.7sec - however given that the MP4's dry times are faster, I suspect this is a printing error.
I've asked Autocar to confirm.

Same issues with the lap times for the 911s running Cup tyres. And, I suspect, with the 430 Scuderia which was on Corsa tyres and had a much slower lap time than it might have been expected to.
Just the same as in F1 - when it rains, cars on slicks go off. Just to a lesser degree with cars like these.
I once drove a 430 Scuderia to the Nordschleiffe in a torrential downpour and had to tippy toe all the way.
Suspect it's not a printing error. Just that tyres like this are crap in the wet.

[ZeroH]

Auburn852 said:

What no one seems to be talking about is the difference that the Pirelli P Zero Corsa tyres make. It seems McLaren have fitted the OPTIONAL Corsa tyres to all their press cars - a fact which Autocar buried away in a picture caption on the first page of the road test. The Corsa tyres undoubtedly make a difference to the time - and it should be more than 0.3secs. Corsa tyres have half the tread depth of a standard P Zero, as fitted to the 458. Hence the McLaren's MUCH slower lap time on the wet lap, by more than 6 secs I think. The same issues as 911 GT3s with Michelin Cup tyres - would you want to drive those cars on a wet road? If the McLaren is supposed to be the quicker car, then it is only if: you drive it at Autocar's dry lap and have specified the optional Corsa tyres. If you drive it anywhere else (Bedford - EVO, Rockingham - CAR), then the MP4 is slower than the 458 even when the Macca is running the Corsa tyres. And don't go anywhere near the Autocar's wet lap if you want to drive quickly.

A more fair comparison would be 458 and MP4 on the same tyres, not one on standard tyres and one on optional sticky rubber.

Let's wait and see what lap time the 458 Scuderia/CS version does when it finally appears. For sure, Ferrari have to beat the MP4's time with that car?

I'll pick up a copy tomorrow but if the 458 is 0.3s slower in the dry (on cup tyres) yet 6s quicker in the wet then I'd consider that a seriously underwhelming result for the mp4

Ferrari factory must be looking at all the smack talk by mclaren prior to launch, looking at all the test reviews now, and sitting back and chortling over an espresso !!