Ferrari Daytona - Help Needed!
Discussion
One of the magazines this month is doing Boxer vs Daytona - buy it read it & talk to whoever they recommend then take your £ 200 000 to whoever you feel comfortable with and have them look for you if especially if its your first foray into classic car ownership - look at the classified here for other suggestions eg DK & Rardley
Edited by johnnyreggae on Thursday 17th November 18:25
History is everything with a classic Ferrari. When you find a car you like get the chassis and engine numbers and make sure they match. This infor will also allow you to track its history. If looked after they will not cost a fortune to run but on the flip side will not be cheap
Most Daytona's by now will have been restored at least once so there should be a decent record of what was done, by whom and how much it cost. In most cases a good photo record will have been taken.
The Daytona is a great GT but is also a heavy car with very heavy steering so not a car for town driving.
A number of Coupes were converted into Spiders; best avoid these and buy a real one if you are looking.
As had been said £200K should get you a decent RHD car, but spend a lot of time talking to the dealers, the good ones like Talacrest and DK Engineering are very helpful.
Good luck with your search
Most Daytona's by now will have been restored at least once so there should be a decent record of what was done, by whom and how much it cost. In most cases a good photo record will have been taken.
The Daytona is a great GT but is also a heavy car with very heavy steering so not a car for town driving.
A number of Coupes were converted into Spiders; best avoid these and buy a real one if you are looking.
As had been said £200K should get you a decent RHD car, but spend a lot of time talking to the dealers, the good ones like Talacrest and DK Engineering are very helpful.
Good luck with your search
Well rare is relative - 1300 odd made, which for a classic Ferrari makes it positively abundant.
I haven't owned a Daytona but have experience in ownership on either side of it - a 330GTC and 365 Boxer.
What is it like to own a good vintage Ferrari? Well it is heaven, just as you are aware of the pitfalls and have the monetary stamina to get through the bad patches. These cars can be very reliable, but they need money thrown at them. Once the car is sorted out you can have very cheap years in between, but usually there is something expensive that needs fixing - spares are expensive and it is also not that easy to find people that can do the car justice.
When buying, firstly you need to realise that 80% of the cars out there are rubbish. Poor restorations, poorly maintained, not driven enough, old tires, worn bushes. Especially worn bushes.
Secondly, of the 80% that are rubbish, 80% of the owners actually think they are concours. There are lots of unrealistic asking prices out there.
Thirdly, you need experience. I would recommend trying to get behind the wheel of several before committing. This is a hard thing to do, though. But it certainly helps being part of true owners' circles, such as good internet forums and the FOC. If you are serious and you take your time then you should be able to build some experience which will be the single biggest money saver that you can get. Buying the wrong car is a sure-fire way to become miserable.
On the reverse side of that coin - you can pay what you think is over market price for a great car, and in fact it can be a bargain. If it is a really good car, the owner will not let it go to just anyone. He will know what the car is worth and how good his car is, and that you are lucky to get your hands on it if he lets you. If you then have no major expenses for the next couple of years, it will have been a great buy.
Personally (and not every owner will agree with this, but most will), to me there are only 2 types of cars you should consider: 1) a basket case with all components present and decent history so that you can restore it or 2) a perfect car. Those are the only ones where you can say "for this amount I will be done". Looking at the cars out there, most are "almost" cars. They look great from far but are far from great. A decent respray is GBP25k. There are plenty of people who do it for 5k or 10k but the result is horrible and will drop off the car two years down the line. An engine rebuild is 25k. Reclothing the interior is 25k. So a car that is "almost there" will almost always be more expensive to get right than a basket case (if you include the purchase price).
Before you do anything - buy the book "ORIGINAL FERRARI V12" by Keith Bluemel. This book will show you what the car should look like if original. So many interiors have been badly restored and this hurts the resale tremendously. But the book also has a very comprehensive description of mechanicals - the Daytona section is quite extensive. It's not expensive either.
Be weary of the concept of "a driver". Lots of people will read what I've said above and think "pretentious Pebble Beach git" but the truth is that very few of these so-called driver's cars are mechanically sound. The mechanicals are the most expensive to get right. Most good cars that I know get driven a lot but they still look like they can run up the lawn in Monterey. Personally, I like to keep my cars flawless BECAUSE I want to drive them. And drive them far. In 2010 I spent 14 days in Europe with my GTC and it was a slice of heaven.
Anyway - I think you need to spend time with these cars and then you will start to develop your own truths and you will find the right car for you.
Above all - buy the one that speaks to you.
I hope this gives you some ideas. Best of luck - the Daytona is a fantastic car! I promise you that when you've bought the right one, you will have the time of your life with it. The best thing about owning a Ferrari like that is the doors that open - you can do so many cool events with it! And I recommend you do the Mille Miglia Tribute in it - fantastic event in a fantastic country.
Onno
I haven't owned a Daytona but have experience in ownership on either side of it - a 330GTC and 365 Boxer.
What is it like to own a good vintage Ferrari? Well it is heaven, just as you are aware of the pitfalls and have the monetary stamina to get through the bad patches. These cars can be very reliable, but they need money thrown at them. Once the car is sorted out you can have very cheap years in between, but usually there is something expensive that needs fixing - spares are expensive and it is also not that easy to find people that can do the car justice.
When buying, firstly you need to realise that 80% of the cars out there are rubbish. Poor restorations, poorly maintained, not driven enough, old tires, worn bushes. Especially worn bushes.
Secondly, of the 80% that are rubbish, 80% of the owners actually think they are concours. There are lots of unrealistic asking prices out there.
Thirdly, you need experience. I would recommend trying to get behind the wheel of several before committing. This is a hard thing to do, though. But it certainly helps being part of true owners' circles, such as good internet forums and the FOC. If you are serious and you take your time then you should be able to build some experience which will be the single biggest money saver that you can get. Buying the wrong car is a sure-fire way to become miserable.
On the reverse side of that coin - you can pay what you think is over market price for a great car, and in fact it can be a bargain. If it is a really good car, the owner will not let it go to just anyone. He will know what the car is worth and how good his car is, and that you are lucky to get your hands on it if he lets you. If you then have no major expenses for the next couple of years, it will have been a great buy.
Personally (and not every owner will agree with this, but most will), to me there are only 2 types of cars you should consider: 1) a basket case with all components present and decent history so that you can restore it or 2) a perfect car. Those are the only ones where you can say "for this amount I will be done". Looking at the cars out there, most are "almost" cars. They look great from far but are far from great. A decent respray is GBP25k. There are plenty of people who do it for 5k or 10k but the result is horrible and will drop off the car two years down the line. An engine rebuild is 25k. Reclothing the interior is 25k. So a car that is "almost there" will almost always be more expensive to get right than a basket case (if you include the purchase price).
Before you do anything - buy the book "ORIGINAL FERRARI V12" by Keith Bluemel. This book will show you what the car should look like if original. So many interiors have been badly restored and this hurts the resale tremendously. But the book also has a very comprehensive description of mechanicals - the Daytona section is quite extensive. It's not expensive either.
Be weary of the concept of "a driver". Lots of people will read what I've said above and think "pretentious Pebble Beach git" but the truth is that very few of these so-called driver's cars are mechanically sound. The mechanicals are the most expensive to get right. Most good cars that I know get driven a lot but they still look like they can run up the lawn in Monterey. Personally, I like to keep my cars flawless BECAUSE I want to drive them. And drive them far. In 2010 I spent 14 days in Europe with my GTC and it was a slice of heaven.
Anyway - I think you need to spend time with these cars and then you will start to develop your own truths and you will find the right car for you.
Above all - buy the one that speaks to you.
I hope this gives you some ideas. Best of luck - the Daytona is a fantastic car! I promise you that when you've bought the right one, you will have the time of your life with it. The best thing about owning a Ferrari like that is the doors that open - you can do so many cool events with it! And I recommend you do the Mille Miglia Tribute in it - fantastic event in a fantastic country.
Onno
well the only ferrari i have owned was a 400i manual v12 1983, it was a low mileage 30,000 had all new koni shox springs brakes all round, now i think that it must share maybe some of the same mechanicals as a daytona and it was newer so would maybe also expect it to be more modern upgraded over a daytona, boy was i disapointed it drove terrible was slow even revving it hard the handlin was awfull brakes the same, if the daytona is anything like the same is it worth it for just its wonderful looks i know they are old but they should also give good driver feel, i think if you drive anyrthing modern that is a mover you will be very disapointed,
i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
CONTI T said:
well the only ferrari i have owned was a 400i manual v12 1983, it was a low mileage 30,000 had all new koni shox springs brakes all round, now i think that it must share maybe some of the same mechanicals as a daytona and it was newer so would maybe also expect it to be more modern upgraded over a daytona, boy was i disapointed it drove terrible was slow even revving it hard the handlin was awfull brakes the same, if the daytona is anything like the same is it worth it for just its wonderful looks i know they are old but they should also give good driver feel, i think if you drive anyrthing modern that is a mover you will be very disapointed,
i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
It really sounds to me like you had an example behind on maintenance. No Ferrari V12 is slow-revving, it is the most amazing quality of these big engines. Now that my 330GTC has had the carbs refurbished, it drops off the revs almost like a 275 GTB 6/C (Competizione, the race car). It's almost like an on-off switch. Similarly, my 365 Boxer revs fantastically. Naturally, your engine was injection but they respond similarly.i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
As for handling - new shocks is only one thing. If you don't replace bushes the car will still be terrible. 30k miles is not what I would qualify as low mileage, it is where the problems start if maintenance has not been up to scratch (and even if it has). My GTC has been restored in 1990 and has now done 30k miles since, of which I have done 10 since 2009. Even though the car was in fantastic mechanical condition, I have spent about 2 pound a mile to catch up with some things. I'm now expecting a couple of cheaper years, but could face a big bill. This is what you must be prepared for when owning a vintage Ferrari.
A proper restoration on a 400 is well north of 100k (if you don't do it yourself). A friend had his BB suspension restored - 30k. I'm not sure you were running the car on that kind of playing field.
As for handling - these cars are the product of their time, so you have to be realistic. But I am telling you - they are fantastic handling cars if in good condition. Naturally you cannot compare a 400i to a 360 Modena. You need to compare it to a XJ-S or something like that. Even so - I drove my GTC on a mountain pass in Switzerland where a 360 Modena had trouble losing me. I've done 140mph in this classic and she hits 60 in about 7 seconds. For the time, that was phenomenal. She is 10 years older than the Porsche 924 and has almost 3 times the horse power!
The best thing about the GTC is the handling on the limit - it is a very benign car and it loves being sent into a hairpin with a little too much speed - aiming straight for the apex and then putting the power on before you get there. She'll relish it, wiggle the butt a bit and power out with a lovely little drift. The joy lies in the fact that the classics make you a better driver. I drove the GTC down that first mountain pass and I ran out of brakes halfway down. I just didn't know how to drive it. So I changed my driving style, listening to the car and starting to trust the chassis. Minimise your braking, use throttle and tyre friction to slow down, and find that she can take twice the speed through the corner compared to what you thought initially. It is a better driver's car than my 365BB or my 550 Maranello, so just because your 400i was disappointing (to you) does not mean that a Daytona should be disappointing. Too many modern drivers do completely the wrong thing and then blame the 40-YO technology!
Back to Daytonas - well alas I haven't driven one yet, let alone in anger, and with what I have learnt these past four years that means that I can't rightly judge. But I do have a good idea, talking to my friends and following a Daytona in my GTC, also on a mountain pass in Switzerland. They are big cars, of that there is no doubt. They don't have the maneuverability of a 275GTB or a even a Boxer. However, their handling lightens up and creates a lovely steering feel. That big engine on the front tyres means there's lots of grip and the rear gets a little playful, especially on the original narrow rear wheels (the 9" Cromodoras give a nice aggressive look but also ruin the handling a bit - similar to modern cars: more grip is not necessarily a good thing if you don't have a lap time to make).
The engine has huge traction - I know this from my Boxer which simplistically speaking has a 180 degree version of the Daytona engine. And that is where the Daytona really comes alive. It's not so much at home on a mountain pass, but in the rolling hills with open corners it is surely breathtaking. Daytonas are the continent crushers of their day and that is how they should be used. They have a big boot and taking one to Italy for a holiday surely must be a glorious time. A friend of mine has an immaculate one that he drives from his home in Switzerland to the UK, to France, to Italy. He is a lucky man.
And I leave you with a shot of my GTC (not me driving, though) - I don't think many of you have seen vintage Ferraris do this stuff very often. Believe me - they are great to drive.
Onno
I just feel I need to clarify something - when I say my GTC is a better driver's car than my 550 Maranello, then I mean it in the context of driving on the open road at the limit. The GTC is more communicative, she tells me more stories, and she gives me more satisfaction. But very objectively speaking she is of course not quicker nor better handling. The gearbox is a bit trickier and you have to work harder to get it right. Double-clutching is a must. On the track (and I've driven my GTC on the track), the 550 is vastly superior. And the 550 is, for a modern car, wonderfully balanced and easy to slide.
But just driving for driving's sake, I'll take the GTC.
Onno
But just driving for driving's sake, I'll take the GTC.
Onno
Cactussed said:
Last I checked, suspension consisted of some bushes, some ball joints and some shock absorbers. Quite how you spend £30k refurbishing it is somewhat beyond me.
Possibley by said garage seeing the owner coming from a mile away!Even with £5k in parts thats still £25k labour!
Roller29 said:
I have just persuaded myself to look into buying a classic Ferrari, most probably a Daytona, and am looking for public opinion/owners perspective into the world of 'old-school' Ferrari ownership.
I know they are extremely rare beasts but any help would be great!
Suggest you contact 212 Export on FerrariLife. He has had his Daytona for 3-4 years now and regularily drives it all over Europe.I know they are extremely rare beasts but any help would be great!
JazzyO said:
CONTI T said:
well the only ferrari i have owned was a 400i manual v12 1983, it was a low mileage 30,000 had all new koni shox springs brakes all round, now i think that it must share maybe some of the same mechanicals as a daytona and it was newer so would maybe also expect it to be more modern upgraded over a daytona, boy was i disapointed it drove terrible was slow even revving it hard the handlin was awfull brakes the same, if the daytona is anything like the same is it worth it for just its wonderful looks i know they are old but they should also give good driver feel, i think if you drive anyrthing modern that is a mover you will be very disapointed,
i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
It really sounds to me like you had an example behind on maintenance. No Ferrari V12 is slow-revving, it is the most amazing quality of these big engines. Now that my 330GTC has had the carbs refurbished, it drops off the revs almost like a 275 GTB 6/C (Competizione, the race car). It's almost like an on-off switch. Similarly, my 365 Boxer revs fantastically. Naturally, your engine was injection but they respond similarly.i would like to hear an honest view from an owner
As for handling - new shocks is only one thing. If you don't replace bushes the car will still be terrible. 30k miles is not what I would qualify as low mileage, it is where the problems start if maintenance has not been up to scratch (and even if it has). My GTC has been restored in 1990 and has now done 30k miles since, of which I have done 10 since 2009. Even though the car was in fantastic mechanical condition, I have spent about 2 pound a mile to catch up with some things. I'm now expecting a couple of cheaper years, but could face a big bill. This is what you must be prepared for when owning a vintage Ferrari.
A proper restoration on a 400 is well north of 100k (if you don't do it yourself). A friend had his BB suspension restored - 30k. I'm not sure you were running the car on that kind of playing field.
As for handling - these cars are the product of their time, so you have to be realistic. But I am telling you - they are fantastic handling cars if in good condition. Naturally you cannot compare a 400i to a 360 Modena. You need to compare it to a XJ-S or something like that. Even so - I drove my GTC on a mountain pass in Switzerland where a 360 Modena had trouble losing me. I've done 140mph in this classic and she hits 60 in about 7 seconds. For the time, that was phenomenal. She is 10 years older than the Porsche 924 and has almost 3 times the horse power!
The best thing about the GTC is the handling on the limit - it is a very benign car and it loves being sent into a hairpin with a little too much speed - aiming straight for the apex and then putting the power on before you get there. She'll relish it, wiggle the butt a bit and power out with a lovely little drift. The joy lies in the fact that the classics make you a better driver. I drove the GTC down that first mountain pass and I ran out of brakes halfway down. I just didn't know how to drive it. So I changed my driving style, listening to the car and starting to trust the chassis. Minimise your braking, use throttle and tyre friction to slow down, and find that she can take twice the speed through the corner compared to what you thought initially. It is a better driver's car than my 365BB or my 550 Maranello, so just because your 400i was disappointing (to you) does not mean that a Daytona should be disappointing. Too many modern drivers do completely the wrong thing and then blame the 40-YO technology!
Back to Daytonas - well alas I haven't driven one yet, let alone in anger, and with what I have learnt these past four years that means that I can't rightly judge. But I do have a good idea, talking to my friends and following a Daytona in my GTC, also on a mountain pass in Switzerland. They are big cars, of that there is no doubt. They don't have the maneuverability of a 275GTB or a even a Boxer. However, their handling lightens up and creates a lovely steering feel. That big engine on the front tyres means there's lots of grip and the rear gets a little playful, especially on the original narrow rear wheels (the 9" Cromodoras give a nice aggressive look but also ruin the handling a bit - similar to modern cars: more grip is not necessarily a good thing if you don't have a lap time to make).
The engine has huge traction - I know this from my Boxer which simplistically speaking has a 180 degree version of the Daytona engine. And that is where the Daytona really comes alive. It's not so much at home on a mountain pass, but in the rolling hills with open corners it is surely breathtaking. Daytonas are the continent crushers of their day and that is how they should be used. They have a big boot and taking one to Italy for a holiday surely must be a glorious time. A friend of mine has an immaculate one that he drives from his home in Switzerland to the UK, to France, to Italy. He is a lucky man.
And I leave you with a shot of my GTC (not me driving, though) - I don't think many of you have seen vintage Ferraris do this stuff very often. Believe me - they are great to drive.
Onno
had the 400 had been an old dog then i would say thats why it drove crap but it was not. one thing it did have was trx tires they were brand new though did they perhaps make the drive poor ?????
i am only stating an honest opinion and just thought as it was say 10 yrs newer than a daytona you would think it should drive nicer ???
saying that a daytona is stunning and maybe you can live with just its looks
I would recommend buying a mint 550 Maranello. It's a superb car, relatively cheap and values are beginning to creep up for outstanding examples. If you go for a Daytona I recommend having Jeff Fosker look over it. Foskers is based at Brands Hatch. I recently bought a 6000 mile F40 (non cat, non adjust). Beautiful car. Tanks had been replaced by the Ferrari main dealer I've used over the years before I bought it. But there was a lingering fuel smell once I had got it home. Ferrari main dealer told me it was to be expected. Vendor told me it was to be expected. The F40 is beyond mint so I thought the smell was perhaps ok. I called around and was recommended to Jeff. He told me absolutely not to drive it. Foskers found a tiny hole in one of the new tanks. if it wasn't for Jeff and Richard I would have been seriously at risk. And after having been told it was "to be expected". So if you're looking to buy a Daytona have a word with Jeff first. Top man.
Camlet said:
I would recommend buying a mint 550 Maranello. It's a superb car, relatively cheap and values are beginning to creep up for outstanding examples. If you go for a Daytona I recommend having Jeff Fosker look over it. Foskers is based at Brands Hatch. I recently bought a 6000 mile F40 (non cat, non adjust). Beautiful car. Tanks had been replaced by the Ferrari main dealer I've used over the years before I bought it. But there was a lingering fuel smell once I had got it home. Ferrari main dealer told me it was to be expected. Vendor told me it was to be expected. The F40 is beyond mint so I thought the smell was perhaps ok. I called around and was recommended to Jeff. He told me absolutely not to drive it. Foskers found a tiny hole in one of the new tanks. if it wasn't for Jeff and Richard I would have been seriously at risk. And after having been told it was "to be expected". So if you're looking to buy a Daytona have a word with Jeff first. Top man.
Thanks for all those who replied. My experiences with Ferraris are very limited having only driven a 458, however what contrasts would you make between the 550 and other cars that i am looking at ie Daytona, 512 etc?Start with everything on the 458 is power assisted - on the Daytona nothing is - on the 550 the steering is - car technology has changed massively in 40 years
There's a world of difference in the ownership experience between £ 200 000 for a forty year old car or a for a state of the art car and fifty grand for one thats fifteen
Maybe you should spend some time looking at pictures and prices and come back with a clearer idea of what you really want and can afford for better advice
There's a world of difference in the ownership experience between £ 200 000 for a forty year old car or a for a state of the art car and fifty grand for one thats fifteen
Maybe you should spend some time looking at pictures and prices and come back with a clearer idea of what you really want and can afford for better advice
Edited by johnnyreggae on Saturday 19th November 11:10
Edited by johnnyreggae on Saturday 19th November 11:13
Edited by johnnyreggae on Saturday 19th November 11:19
Classic Ferrari ownership is a whole different experience. My mate had a daytona and I was lucky to be able to drive it. They feel slow and heavy at low speed. I was initially quite disappointed. However, start to get some speed up and it is an epic car. I drove it accross europe at very high dpeeds and i will never forget the experience.
You have to enjoy the whole experience and not just the driving. Firstly they are truly beautiful in the flesh. Not hindered by fussy aero styling and crash regulatory features. The smell of oil and leather is fantastic-you just don't get this in modern cars. You cannot compare the performance to modern cars, it simply wont compete ( even a daytona)
The classic car club scene is very
different to modern Supercar clubs.
Some like this some don't.
For me classic ownership is much more fulfilling in the longterm and at least you are unlikely to be losing money in depreciation if youbuy wisely. Speak to some owners. The guys at dk engineering are helpful and they may help you find a good example. Good luck with your decision
You have to enjoy the whole experience and not just the driving. Firstly they are truly beautiful in the flesh. Not hindered by fussy aero styling and crash regulatory features. The smell of oil and leather is fantastic-you just don't get this in modern cars. You cannot compare the performance to modern cars, it simply wont compete ( even a daytona)
The classic car club scene is very
different to modern Supercar clubs.
Some like this some don't.
For me classic ownership is much more fulfilling in the longterm and at least you are unlikely to be losing money in depreciation if youbuy wisely. Speak to some owners. The guys at dk engineering are helpful and they may help you find a good example. Good luck with your decision
Superb posts from Onno. You would be surprised how many poorly restored cars are out there. Today I was in the presence of 8 pre 1973 V12s. 3 of them looked lovely at first glance, but on close inspection, not so good. one was a Daytona and I know what was paid for it....the other 5 are nigh on 100 percent cars.
So the sensible advice is use a reputable dealer who knows the particular model of car you are buying and check the car out with other dealers to see if it has any 'stories'. If more than one tells you the same story, chances are it is true!
The talk today was around what some particular Daytonas on the market might be worth if one turned up with a wad of cash...the perceived wisdom from an old hand amongst us was that a 20% discount might be achievable on several out there.
If you want a most wonderful Daytona and have £210k to spend, let me know.
Incidentally, I think the Daytona is an epic car. Fit electric power steering to it and it makes a fine town car - it's slim of hips with a decent glasshouse too....
So the sensible advice is use a reputable dealer who knows the particular model of car you are buying and check the car out with other dealers to see if it has any 'stories'. If more than one tells you the same story, chances are it is true!
The talk today was around what some particular Daytonas on the market might be worth if one turned up with a wad of cash...the perceived wisdom from an old hand amongst us was that a 20% discount might be achievable on several out there.
If you want a most wonderful Daytona and have £210k to spend, let me know.
Incidentally, I think the Daytona is an epic car. Fit electric power steering to it and it makes a fine town car - it's slim of hips with a decent glasshouse too....
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