XJ220 if it had a V12????
Discussion
A car discussion has started on boxing day re best super cars or forgotten super cars which could have been better.
Well XJ220 original plan v12 only but ended up being a v6 turbo...
Orders plummeted through the floor - why didn't they reassess the viability of a v12 ???
Anyway question is had this car been given a v12 would it now be held in the same regard ??? Would it have been faster and would it have saved Jag from Fords ownership.... And if so was the ford partnership fire for the brand ...s type whoops x type double whoops
Well XJ220 original plan v12 only but ended up being a v6 turbo...
Orders plummeted through the floor - why didn't they reassess the viability of a v12 ???
Anyway question is had this car been given a v12 would it now be held in the same regard ??? Would it have been faster and would it have saved Jag from Fords ownership.... And if so was the ford partnership fire for the brand ...s type whoops x type double whoops
The reason was because in the later stages Jaguar contracted out the 'interesting and exotic work' to TWR via Jagsport who screwed them over and had their own agenda.
This is something they do even today- when an interesting 'exotic' project appears -instead of using it to motivate and get their employees juices going they'd rather contract the interesting stuff out so that it doesn't get 'in the way' of their employees 'day to day'.
This is something they do even today- when an interesting 'exotic' project appears -instead of using it to motivate and get their employees juices going they'd rather contract the interesting stuff out so that it doesn't get 'in the way' of their employees 'day to day'.
Welshbeef said:
A car discussion has started on boxing day re best super cars or forgotten super cars which could have been better.
Well XJ220 original plan v12 only but ended up being a v6 turbo...
Orders plummeted through the floor - why didn't they reassess the viability of a v12 ???
Yep, the V12 that would be unsuitable for the car according to Tom Walkinshaw, but strangely he deemed it perfectly adequate for his own XJR-15 project Well XJ220 original plan v12 only but ended up being a v6 turbo...
Orders plummeted through the floor - why didn't they reassess the viability of a v12 ???
Welshbeef said:
Anyway question is had this car been given a v12 would it now be held in the same regard ???
Again, I point to the JaguarSport XJR-15 that did have the V12, yet most people have never heard of it. It's not as if the V6 with turbos was lacking in power.Tbh, the V6 v V12 argument was more of a get-out clause for buyers and collectors who'd paid deposits with an eye on it being an investment. If there hadn't been an economic downturn I don't think it would have mattered one jot to them what engine it had.
Don't forget that the prototype also had 4wd, yet that's rarely ever mentioned, so the engine wasn't the only change.
Production model differs from show car shocker!
Welshbeef said:
Would it have been faster and would it have saved Jag from Fords ownership....
I can't see the performance being that different, and I don't see that it would have made any difference with regards to Ford buying the company. At that time, despite emerging from the death knell that was BL, and starting to turn around the woeful reputation for poor reliability, what they desperately needed was investment, and lots of it. The existing models were all getting long in the tooth by then, and they simply didn't have enough cash to develop new cars.Welshbeef said:
And if so was the ford partnership fire for the brand ...s type whoops x type double whoops
Mixed blessing imho. Whilst the investment was much needed, Ford didn't really understand the brand. Jaguar had always been very forward looking in its past, yet Ford then pushed for retro styling on the cars to appeal to what it thought were Jaguar customers. The only reason existing Jags had a retro appeal was because the lack of funds for development had been keeping the existing cars going for longer than they should have. Ford's foray into F1 with the Jaguar brand in an attempt to appeal to younger buyers was just an embarrassment, and when Ford's board have to enquire as to who one Mr E Irvine is and why he's being paid so much, it really shows how little knowledge they had of Jaguar.Having Aston and Jag with the same parent company never helped matters. With Aston being seen as the sportier brand, it naturally meant that Jags had to be held back so as not to take market share from the sister company. Rumour has it that the XKRR never developed beyond prototype stage for just this reason.
Let's not forget though, that the new XK/R was launched under Ford ownership, and the XF came to fruition towards the end as well, with Tata now benefiting from all the sales.
At least we can be thankful to Ford that Jaguar never went the way of Rover under BMW, however.
Would it have been faster? Is 219mph not fast enough?
The twin turbo V6 it ended up with was a great engine. I've got a book on supercars and it has a chapter on the XJ220, suggests more that it was very pricey for the time and the looming economic crisis of the early 90s was what had the effect of making people want to pull their money out of frivolous purchases like the Jag.
Iirc, the depost was something like £180,000, and was non-refundable, some potential buyers took Jaguar to court but the court ruled in favour of Jaguar and the customers had to pay another £20,000 in fees to get the orders cancelled or end up having to pay for the car they did not want. A bit of a PR disaster really, but the XJ220 is still one of my favourite supercars. It's funny how something designed 20 years ago still looks fresh today, whereas some supercar designs (Ferrari are the worst imo) look dated only a year or so after they hit the market and some look like hideous old hat before they are even on sale, like the FF.
The twin turbo V6 it ended up with was a great engine. I've got a book on supercars and it has a chapter on the XJ220, suggests more that it was very pricey for the time and the looming economic crisis of the early 90s was what had the effect of making people want to pull their money out of frivolous purchases like the Jag.
Iirc, the depost was something like £180,000, and was non-refundable, some potential buyers took Jaguar to court but the court ruled in favour of Jaguar and the customers had to pay another £20,000 in fees to get the orders cancelled or end up having to pay for the car they did not want. A bit of a PR disaster really, but the XJ220 is still one of my favourite supercars. It's funny how something designed 20 years ago still looks fresh today, whereas some supercar designs (Ferrari are the worst imo) look dated only a year or so after they hit the market and some look like hideous old hat before they are even on sale, like the FF.
DrTre said:
Can anyone tell me if Jag sold more cars under Ford ownership? Seems to me to be more than likely judging from what I saw/see on the roads?
I would have thought so, for every XJ or XF I see on the roads, I see at last 10 S Types and probably 50 X types, I don't think the Jaguar brand would have survived in the fashion it is today were it not for Ford's intervention. Jaguar make some amazing cars now, but while the X and S Types might not be "real" jags the purists, they were the cars they needed to sell in order to find he good stuff.Mastodon2 said:
. It's funny how something designed 20 years ago still looks fresh today, whereas some supercar designs (Ferrari are the worst imo) look dated only a year or so after they hit the market and some look like hideous old hat before they are even on sale, like the FF.
Interesting. So to you the XJ220 still looks fresh? To me and most people I know it looks very dated, overweight and ungainly. Especially from the rear. One of the few super cars that still looks fresh and modern to my eyes is the Mclaren F1.DrTre said:
Can anyone tell me if Jag sold more cars under Ford ownership? Seems to me to be more than likely judging from what I saw/see on the roads?
Jaguar had already been on the resurgence prior to the 1989 purchase by Ford, thanks to John Egan's efforts, persistence and determination.Yes, Ford provided some much needed investment, but imho by focussing on Jaguar's retro appeal it left the brand treading water for a decade in terms of styling, with perhaps the exception of the XK8/R. At least during that time Jaguar's reputation for reliability was able to improve, if not the miss placed reputation they had for being "an old man's car".
Had that same investment come from other sources that perhaps better understood the marque, could Jaguar now be in an even stronger position? Personally, I believe they would be.
jagnet said:
Jaguar had already been on the resurgence prior to the 1989 purchase by Ford, thanks to John Egan's efforts, persistence and determination.
Yes, Ford provided some much needed investment, but imho by focussing on Jaguar's retro appeal it left the brand treading water for a decade in terms of styling, with perhaps the exception of the XK8/R. At least during that time Jaguar's reputation for reliability was able to improve, if not the miss placed reputation they had for being "an old man's car".
Had that same investment come from other sources that perhaps better understood the marque, could Jaguar now be in an even stronger position? Personally, I believe they would be.
I do remember them being on the up, yes, but whether that would have been enough going into the 90's recession...?Yes, Ford provided some much needed investment, but imho by focussing on Jaguar's retro appeal it left the brand treading water for a decade in terms of styling, with perhaps the exception of the XK8/R. At least during that time Jaguar's reputation for reliability was able to improve, if not the miss placed reputation they had for being "an old man's car".
Had that same investment come from other sources that perhaps better understood the marque, could Jaguar now be in an even stronger position? Personally, I believe they would be.
I don't doubt your last paragraph and I don't see Ford as being any sort of gracious saviour however, was anyone else interested in Jag at the time (genuine question, I can't remember)?
If not then it appears to me to be a lesser of two evils, Jag was saved from (IMO) pretty much winding up and that's not something to malign Ford for as badly as they do IMO. It could have been better but it could have been much, much worse.
Funny, I really quite passionately detest the XK8 styling (though I was a little young for target market at the time) but think the X type was pretty good, S type not so much (to put it politely) and XKR is bob on.
DanielC4GP said:
Wasn't one of the reasons the V12 was dropped in favour of a V6 was because of weight distrubution?
Yep, smaller in height, wide and depth so more centralised mass and it was possible to mount it lower in the car. I don't see why people get so hung up about the V6, a 3.5L engine making around 550bhp is hardly lacking.
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