Hybrid Hysteria!
Discussion
As governments move us towards electrification and special ICE car’s become silly money I wanted to open a discussion about the middle ground …. ie hybrid, because there seems to be an excessive fear of the technology amongst petrol heads!
I get that adding lots of weight blunts a car’s dynamics and that hybrid technology can add a worrying cost penalty if batteries fail, but we do have to face up to global warming and if the technology is deployed in the right way surely it can actually improve a car?
From being anti-hybrid I have become a convert to hybrid tech in the shape of a Mclaren Artura, while I recognise Mclaren cocked up by launching it before it was ready, now they have sorted the technology this is one of the very best driver’s car’s available - full stop.
Sub -1500kg - ultra rigid Carbon tub - hydraulic feelsome steering - beautifully judged suspension and an electronic diff- zero body roll - 700hp via a screaming V6 with the normal turbo lag completely removed by using a smaller lighter less expensive battery for instant response - 0-100mph in the 5’s!- dynamic dual clutch transmission and ceramic braking power!
I get that a 720, 488, R8, GT3, Huracan (etc, love them all & owned a few) can offer a similar experience (some with a better exhaust note!) without hybrid tech, but surely if we can have our cake and eat it isn’t the future brighter than expected? By that I mean - reduced C02 emissions, improved fuel economy and adding a silent electric only mode for when a loud exhaust isn’t appropriate while eradicating turbo lag and adding power + torque. Hybrid tech has been around a long while now but confidence is still low in the high performance market, that adds another benefit, excellent used value until more people realise how good this and some other hybrids are!
I get that adding lots of weight blunts a car’s dynamics and that hybrid technology can add a worrying cost penalty if batteries fail, but we do have to face up to global warming and if the technology is deployed in the right way surely it can actually improve a car?
From being anti-hybrid I have become a convert to hybrid tech in the shape of a Mclaren Artura, while I recognise Mclaren cocked up by launching it before it was ready, now they have sorted the technology this is one of the very best driver’s car’s available - full stop.
Sub -1500kg - ultra rigid Carbon tub - hydraulic feelsome steering - beautifully judged suspension and an electronic diff- zero body roll - 700hp via a screaming V6 with the normal turbo lag completely removed by using a smaller lighter less expensive battery for instant response - 0-100mph in the 5’s!- dynamic dual clutch transmission and ceramic braking power!
I get that a 720, 488, R8, GT3, Huracan (etc, love them all & owned a few) can offer a similar experience (some with a better exhaust note!) without hybrid tech, but surely if we can have our cake and eat it isn’t the future brighter than expected? By that I mean - reduced C02 emissions, improved fuel economy and adding a silent electric only mode for when a loud exhaust isn’t appropriate while eradicating turbo lag and adding power + torque. Hybrid tech has been around a long while now but confidence is still low in the high performance market, that adds another benefit, excellent used value until more people realise how good this and some other hybrids are!
I'm one of the ones you are talking about.
I've currently got a 650S and love it to bits, but eventually the time will come to move on, but not sure what to. I have no issues with electrification in general, our family car is an EV and is all the better for it. I'm sure all our family cars from now on will all be EV as well, and I'd have no issue with a hybrid from Toyota or Honda. But I do admit that a hybrid McLaren does scare me. My current car is 9 years old, and it has had a 3 issues of note in the last 2 years, all of them have been electrical. I just don't have that much faith in a hybrid drive system from McLaren once it gets to be 8+ years old. The same goes for Ferrari as well.
You're not the first person to come on here and say that the Artura is a fantastic car to own, and that it's just as good to drive as their older models. However, and maybe it's just paranoia, I definitely wouldn't have as much confidence in a well used one as I do their more conventional models.
I've currently got a 650S and love it to bits, but eventually the time will come to move on, but not sure what to. I have no issues with electrification in general, our family car is an EV and is all the better for it. I'm sure all our family cars from now on will all be EV as well, and I'd have no issue with a hybrid from Toyota or Honda. But I do admit that a hybrid McLaren does scare me. My current car is 9 years old, and it has had a 3 issues of note in the last 2 years, all of them have been electrical. I just don't have that much faith in a hybrid drive system from McLaren once it gets to be 8+ years old. The same goes for Ferrari as well.
You're not the first person to come on here and say that the Artura is a fantastic car to own, and that it's just as good to drive as their older models. However, and maybe it's just paranoia, I definitely wouldn't have as much confidence in a well used one as I do their more conventional models.
So I went all in hybrid with a new 296 GTS. The lengthy warranty period and ability to extend it for as long as I can imagine I will care, together with the assumption of a healthy dose of depreciation made me settle on a madly fast, fun, tactile, responsive and did I say fun supercar. I may be wrong who knows? Planning a trip through Nothern Spain and back through Wales shortly. The hybrid bits remove 90% of any turbo lag and enable me to leave very quietly in the early morning, but are not essential to the package.
Edited by MingtheMerciless on Wednesday 2nd September 21:04
Edited by MingtheMerciless on Wednesday 2nd September 21:05
Don’t own a hybrid, but not necessarily against them. I would love a 918, just can’t afford it. I thought about a 296, but in the end went for a non-hybrid car instead partly due to weight and partly because I suspect they are not yet at the end of their depreciation curve (plus there is the aspect that it seems lime plenty of things break on cars in general, not sure I want to add another potential item to the list).
ajm_ph said:
I'm one of the ones you are talking about.
You're not the first person to come on here and say that the Artura is a fantastic car to own, and that it's just as good to drive as their older models. However, and maybe it's just paranoia, I definitely wouldn't have as much confidence in a well used one as I do their more conventional models.
The 650S is fab You're not the first person to come on here and say that the Artura is a fantastic car to own, and that it's just as good to drive as their older models. However, and maybe it's just paranoia, I definitely wouldn't have as much confidence in a well used one as I do their more conventional models.
and I get your point at 8 years old, hybrid tech has been around a long time now and is well proven, but it does add complexity, although Artura comes with a longer warranty, and 3 years on used. Test drive one for future reference and see what you think.MingtheMerciless said:
So I went all in hybrid with a new 296 GTS.
Superb beast congrats, I did look at 296 myself, but it was £65k more for a 2 year older car and the Artura is insanely ballistic enough for me, god knows what your 296 is like with the pedal to the metal!MDL111 said:
Don’t own a hybrid, but not necessarily against them. I would love a 918, just can t afford it. I thought about a 296, but in the end went for a non-hybrid car instead
What did you go for? Do test drive a hybrid supercar if you get the chance, Mclaren do seem to have got the weight/handling/power balance right.davek_964 said:
Not sure how you have any bill if you bought from a dealer.
CRA surely.
I will see what happens. Will certainly tell them and ask for them to pay, but given they made me pay half the cost for a new chip even though the contract stated car was chipped in the past (ie not anymore), I don’t have high hopes. I think they would rather take the car back as supposedly they had other people wanting to buy it shortly after me. We will see CRA surely.
MDL111 said:
Went for a 675 LT instead, which immediately broke on the first day. Hope to get it back next week to at least drive it a little prior to winter. Warranty would have been nice - ah well, not a big bill I think (hope), so all good
Blimey if I was paying that sort of money I’d want the dealer to support any issues! Sorry to hear about the problem & I hope it’s fixed so you can enjoy a great car, incidentally did you actually drive an Artura?
@Grant3 - love the Artura, but I live in Ireland and there are no McLaren dealers on the island. That said, I'd happily own one otherwise.
The other thing is that we have a punitive tax regime (€150k import taxes on 296) which is weighted towards hybrids which heavily influenced my decision. I'd have had an 812 GTS otherwise.
The other thing is that we have a punitive tax regime (€150k import taxes on 296) which is weighted towards hybrids which heavily influenced my decision. I'd have had an 812 GTS otherwise.
Grant3 said:
MDL111 said:
Went for a 675 LT instead, which immediately broke on the first day. Hope to get it back next week to at least drive it a little prior to winter. Warranty would have been nice - ah well, not a big bill I think (hope), so all good
Blimey if I was paying that sort of money I d want the dealer to support any issues! Sorry to hear about the problem & I hope it s fixed so you can enjoy a great car, incidentally did you actually drive an Artura?
No, have never driven the Artura or any other hybrid for that matter as I was too lazy to drive to Italy for the 296 test drives (should have done that at the time, but the risk of then buying one immediately was too high
)Question about Artura ownership.
As I understand it there is no regen braking to maintain pedal feel, and the only charging it does on the move is on light throttle when coasting or slowing. In practice how well does that maintain charge? If I was doing a long day of driving with some enthusiastic use of sports mode along the way, would it eventually just drain the relatively small battery and leave me with "just" the V6 to play with? Or in practice, after a day of on-off driving with a good dose of full throttle thrown in would I still expect to benefit from the electric assist? I'm not talking about track days here, just a mix of A and B roads.
And are you still forced to use those stupid overpriced Pirelli "smart" tyres without it throwing errors, or is that sorted now?
I want to like the Artura, it feels like a way to have a more modern and even more usable replacement to the 650S (which is already very usable) without sacrificing performance.
As I understand it there is no regen braking to maintain pedal feel, and the only charging it does on the move is on light throttle when coasting or slowing. In practice how well does that maintain charge? If I was doing a long day of driving with some enthusiastic use of sports mode along the way, would it eventually just drain the relatively small battery and leave me with "just" the V6 to play with? Or in practice, after a day of on-off driving with a good dose of full throttle thrown in would I still expect to benefit from the electric assist? I'm not talking about track days here, just a mix of A and B roads.
And are you still forced to use those stupid overpriced Pirelli "smart" tyres without it throwing errors, or is that sorted now?
I want to like the Artura, it feels like a way to have a more modern and even more usable replacement to the 650S (which is already very usable) without sacrificing performance.
Edited by ajm_ph on Thursday 3rd September 14:31
MingtheMerciless said:
@Grant3 - love the Artura, but I live in Ireland and there are no McLaren dealers on the island. That said, I'd happily own one otherwise.
The other thing is that we have a punitive tax regime ( 150k import taxes on 296) which is weighted towards hybrids which heavily influenced my decision. I'd have had an 812 GTS otherwise.
Ah, fully understood…. I bet you have some epic roads without too much traffic where you can exercise those 800 horses?The other thing is that we have a punitive tax regime ( 150k import taxes on 296) which is weighted towards hybrids which heavily influenced my decision. I'd have had an 812 GTS otherwise.
ajm_ph said:
Question about Artura ownership.
As I understand it there is no regen braking to maintain pedal feel, and the only charging it does on the move is on light throttle when coasting or slowing. In practice how well does that maintain charge? If I was doing a long day of driving with some enthusiastic use of sports mode along the way, would it eventually just drain the relatively small battery and leave me with "just" the V6 to play with? Or in practice, after a day of on-off driving with a good dose of full throttle thrown in would I still expect to benefit from the electric assist? I'm not talking about track days here, just a mix of A and B roads.
And are you still forced to use those stupid overpriced Pirelli "smart" tyres without it throwing errors, or is that sorted now?
I want to like the Artura, it feels like a way to have a more modern and even more usable replacement to the 650S (which is already very usable) without sacrificing
On start up you can easily set the battery to maximum charging and in track/sport it shows the regen via a blue line. Basically it depends on your driving style, but I find in hard spirited driving it tends to maintain its charge. In other words the battery you use for extra grunt gets topped back up when you aren t "on-it"! As I understand it there is no regen braking to maintain pedal feel, and the only charging it does on the move is on light throttle when coasting or slowing. In practice how well does that maintain charge? If I was doing a long day of driving with some enthusiastic use of sports mode along the way, would it eventually just drain the relatively small battery and leave me with "just" the V6 to play with? Or in practice, after a day of on-off driving with a good dose of full throttle thrown in would I still expect to benefit from the electric assist? I'm not talking about track days here, just a mix of A and B roads.
And are you still forced to use those stupid overpriced Pirelli "smart" tyres without it throwing errors, or is that sorted now?
I want to like the Artura, it feels like a way to have a more modern and even more usable replacement to the 650S (which is already very usable) without sacrificing
If you leave an ICE car for a good while you need a battery trickle charger, with the Artura you can just plug the HV cable into a normal plug as you would a trickle charger and this will then maintain the 12v and hybrid battery. The dash actually shows both 12v and hybrid charge levels on entering the car!
Yes they do still use the Cyber tyre, although there are other options coming. They not only have real time data and temps but also sound reduction inside, so you don t get the tyre roar you get in a Porsche or Aston. But they are a silly price, My dealer agreed to fit a new set on my 2 year old car!
It is an incredibly involving driver s car but also daily useable if required, the Bowers and Wilkins audio is awesome and mine has adaptive cruise, front lift + all the usual high end toys.
Give it a test drive and see what you think.
Edited by Grant3 on Thursday 3rd September 22:55
I will admit I am tempted.
We are a 2-car household, the family EV and the 650S, and my wife uses the other car exclusively, meaning the McLaren gets used a lot for daily duties. I'm generally fine with that as I am a great believer in actually using these cars, not leaving it parked up for weeks on end worrying about the mileage readout. But all the same when I am doing a 5 mile trip through town traffic doing about 8 MPG I would just as happily turn off the twin-turbo V8.
Even with 650S prices shooting up recently there is still a good 50k jump from a 650S spider to an Artura Spider, which I couldn't justify (even though that is comparing a 9 year old car with a 2 year old one, but as far as cars go I see age as just a number). But I imagine that difference will come down.
We are a 2-car household, the family EV and the 650S, and my wife uses the other car exclusively, meaning the McLaren gets used a lot for daily duties. I'm generally fine with that as I am a great believer in actually using these cars, not leaving it parked up for weeks on end worrying about the mileage readout. But all the same when I am doing a 5 mile trip through town traffic doing about 8 MPG I would just as happily turn off the twin-turbo V8.
Even with 650S prices shooting up recently there is still a good 50k jump from a 650S spider to an Artura Spider, which I couldn't justify (even though that is comparing a 9 year old car with a 2 year old one, but as far as cars go I see age as just a number). But I imagine that difference will come down.
Edited by ajm_ph on Friday 4th September 09:12
Its not hybrid hysteria and it is not an excessive fear of the technology, its because buying a hybrid supercar is financial suicide.
The cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
The cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
6208 said:
Its not hybrid hysteria and it is not an excessive fear of the technology, its because buying a hybrid supercar is financial suicide.
The cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
only idiotsThe cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
ajm_ph said:
I will admit I am tempted.
We are a 2-car household, the family EV and the 650S, and my wife uses the other car exclusively, meaning the McLaren gets used a lot for daily duties. I'm generally fine with that as I am a great believer in actually using these cars, not leaving it parked up for weeks on end worrying about the mileage readout. But all the same when I am doing a 5 mile trip through town traffic doing about 8 MPG I would just as happily turn off the twin-turbo V8.
Even with 650S prices shooting up recently there is still a good 50k jump from a 650S spider to an Artura Spider, which I couldn't justify (even though that is comparing a 9 year old car with a 2 year old one, but as far as cars go I see age as just a number). But I imagine that difference will come down.
I get that and agree it’s worth waiting until spyder prices come down more, in the meantime give it try.We are a 2-car household, the family EV and the 650S, and my wife uses the other car exclusively, meaning the McLaren gets used a lot for daily duties. I'm generally fine with that as I am a great believer in actually using these cars, not leaving it parked up for weeks on end worrying about the mileage readout. But all the same when I am doing a 5 mile trip through town traffic doing about 8 MPG I would just as happily turn off the twin-turbo V8.
Even with 650S prices shooting up recently there is still a good 50k jump from a 650S spider to an Artura Spider, which I couldn't justify (even though that is comparing a 9 year old car with a 2 year old one, but as far as cars go I see age as just a number). But I imagine that difference will come down.
6208 said:
Its not hybrid hysteria and it is not an excessive fear of the technology, its because buying a hybrid supercar is financial suicide.
The cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
Fuel injection… it will go wrong it’s too complicated I’m sticking with my carburettors…. ABS & Stability Control is too complicated it will go wrong I’ll cadence brake thanks - adaptive dampers very expensive to replace can’t go there, ceramic brakes cost a fortune the car will be worth nothing as they wear…Carbon-fibre panels too expensive to repair don’t buy a car with…etc etc. The cost to get in and out these hybrid supercars is brutal.
Then you have battery replacement cost timebomb.
In 5 years time this generation of hybrid supercars will be old obsolete technology.
Who buys a 5-10 year old smart phone.
Every step in technology the same rose tinted glasses looking back, but things march on we get used to them and all settles down. Hybrid tech has been around a long time, just not in the context of supercars!
The fact is in order to keep high performance car’s we have to accept hybrid technology is necessary and you have to celebrate the fact that the likes of Mclaren can produce such an amazing drivers car while still meeting modern emissions demands. It stands on it’s own two feet against any ICE car.
I agree new depreciation is frightening (although it has been on most high end stuff, Aston’s Ferrari, Bentley) but conversely that makes a warranted lightly used car with free servicing a bargain. With the battery you can easily check it’s condition mine was 98.6% at 7k miles, cost of replacement for the Artura is about 6k so less than a set of ceramic brakes.
The cost of maintaining older ferrari’s and lambo’s can be crippling but people still buy and enjoy them.
In 5-10 years time we will likely be all EV so hybrid could well be the sweet spot in between as ICE supecar prices inflate (before the next bubble bursts) certainly not like an old smartphone!
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