Which would you choose?

[jay_z]

First of all I better apologise for posting this in the Ferrari forum, because strictly it has nothing to do with Ferraris. In my defence though, I have only ever posted here and I can be sure to get completely unbiased advice/comments from people I know and trust.

Anyway, enough of the bt!!!

The temptation to own something nippy is slowly but surely getting the better of me.

Unfortunately I haven't got the pennies to get anywhere near a Ferrari of any sort, except for a die-cast model perhaps.

I'm looking for something that looks special, is pretty quick, and can put the fun back into driving again. With a potential budget of 12K this isn't going to be easy.

After lots of debates (with myself) I have limited the choice down to two cars. 1)TVR Chimera and 2)Lotus Elise

I've been looking in both of the cars forums for sometime now, and this is a question that gets asked an awful lot - but usually ends up into a my cars better than yours cat fight!!!

Both of these cars can be had for this amount of money, and I also know that both have + and - points.

The question I ask is: Which one would you choose and why?

Here are my thoughts on each:
TVR Chimera
~~~~~~~~~~~
Beautiful looking car, with some serious amount poke under the bonnet. Makes a wonderful noise. It's a V8. Full blown convertible. Dare I say it, a little more practical than the Elise.

Reliability issues. More expensive to run/service/insure than the Elise

Louts Elise
~~~~~~~~~~~
Beautiful looking car, with NOT as much poke under the bonnet. I've heard/read lots of complaints about the lack of power from the 1.8 Kseries engine - but does this really matter in real world driving situations - I would guess NOT!!! Fantastic fuel consumption (40+mpg), Light and chuck able, Has won the 'Best Drivers Car' more times than I've had hot dinners. Cheaper to run/service/insure than the TVR. More reliable????

Impractical as everyday transport. Sounds like a hair dryer compared to the V8. Has a habit of spinning off roundabouts at 20mph

I could go on ALL DAY regarding the pros and cons of each, but I won't. I'm just interested to here other peoples views on both of the cars. I know the best thing to do is go out and drive both to see which fits the bill (AND I WILL), but I want to be absolutely certain that I pick the right car.

Any help or advice would be me very much appreciated.
Cheers,
Jay.

[davidy]

A thread with constructive comments!!!

www.pistonheads.net/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=15&t=23354

Knowing a couple of people who have just bought 12K Chimaeras, I would say that your budget needs to be a little higher, both of these cars needed work done on them to bring them up to spec (mostly a damn good service, tyres and a Mark Adams tune-up) but one needed a new radiator and the other has some paintwork issues. One car was a 95M with 50K miles and the other was a 98R with 65K miles.

There are 12K cars out there, but I would have thought that 14K was more realistic to get a sorted car.

I'm not experienced with Elises, but you could post the question can I get a reliable Elise for 12K on their forum and see what response you get.

Hope that helps

davidy

[bertie]

IMHO your going to struggle to get a nice one of either for 12K and both have the potential to end up costing you which isn't funny if you're on a tight budget.

Personaly I prefer the Chimaera, mine was probably the best TVR I've had and great fun but the bills are bigger and the potential for a wallet smasher higher.

The Elise is great fun, a pain on a day to day basis, difficult access, leaky roof, but much cheaper to maintain and a lovely drive once you're in.

You pays your money........

[craigw]

Jay, About 2 years ago I had a Griffith 500 (not quite the same I know) and an elise 111s at the same time. I generally ended up using the TVR much more often because as you say, it is more practical. The lotus was a pain in the @rse to get into and/or get the roof off & on.

The lotus was great fun on country roads, did lack the top end speed & grunt of the TVR but you could maintain speed through the twisty stuff so well. Not that comfortable, no mod cons.

The TVR, used more petrol, was like an oven whatever the weather & was less reliable.

In short, as others have said, buying cars like these on a budget can lead to financial hardship so get whatever you buy checked out thouroughly. They are both great cars, good luck.

PS. Have you considered a 911 ? For 12k you could maybe get a LHD 964

[iguana]

In a way it kinda depends on what would be your Ferrari choice if you had the money. For example (this is all IMHO) the Chim is more in the lines of a Daytona or perhaps a 550 or 456, whereas the Elise is more 355 or 360.

For me personally it would be an Elise (and im wondering just how to afford one at the moment), the chim does not interest me at all.

But how about as an idea with a £10k budget a TVR S for £5-6k and an MR2 Mk1 for say under £4k for a really really nice one! you could have the best of both world then.

[kevinday]

Jay, you did not say whether this was to be your only car. If so I would recommend the TVR because it is more practicable and you can fit more than 1 loaf of bread in it. If not, then I would ask yourself what you will be using the car for, serious country-laning and track work, or, jollies out in the sunshine. If the first then the Lotus, if the second then the TVR.

[trackdemon]

Funny you should ask this as its exactly the decision I made in March 99'

So, from the TVR owners point of view:

Chimaera:
Beautiful, comfortable (I recently did a 3,500mile holiday in it), relatively practical. Enormously quick in any gear, makes a wonderful noise, and
handles beautifully if treated with respect: oodles of power oversteer fairly easy to hold. Fantastic on track where you have room to use the power.
And yes, the power does count on the open road because it's exciting (if not legal). Reliability, well from my own experience absolutely top drawer.
Failed to start once because a wire dropped off the fuel pump, reconnected and off we go. Otherwise there's only niggly bits that want sorting
(mirrors falling out as their only held on with tape and a slight press fit) but basic mechanicals are as tough and strong as you could want. Mine leaks
a little but not enough to worry about. Heating/ventilation is crap, wipers could be better. Hood design is top notch - fully open or targa, the choice
is yours... Good specialists everywhere for reasonably priced servicing and if your handy with a spanner then such things as brake disks/pads can be
purchased for next to nothing as they are Ford items. And the economy's not even that bad (25ish on a run).

Elise (standard 118bhp Mk1):
IMHO, not as muscular and stylish as a Chim, but still 'a good looking car'; subjective of course. Quick up to 80ish, then acceleration tails off as
aerodynamics kick in against the lowish power, but enough go across country in the 50-80 zone. Handling is superb with lovely steering, super agile
and great feedback with nice balance - just don't back off on the limit (as I found out!). Have to say I found it pretty uncomfortable (I'm 6"1), and its
not what you'd call refined (neither is a TVR but I wouldn't fancy a 3500 mile drive in an Elise). Basically its a fun car that can (just) be used every
day. I believe the situation regarding servicing etc is pretty much the same as a Chim, ie plenty of decent specialists and parts not excessive. The
hood is a pain in the @rse though!

I chose by hiring one of each for a day and thrashing accross 250miles to see how I got on.. I'd rate them like this (out of 10):

Performance 9(TVR) 7(Lotus)
Handling 7.5(TVR) 9(Lotus)
Comfort 7.5(TVR) 4(Lotus)
Useability 7(TVR) 5(Lotus)
Running costs 5(TVR) 7(Lotus)

So the TVR predictably scores more! I think the choice is simply a case of which is most important: handling or performance. For me the TVR has
the better blend as the handling is far from shabby, but it remains one of the quickest things on the road while the Lotus is frankly slow after a
Chimaera. Add the fact the TVR is more comfortable and useable, has at least as good a dealer/specialist network and the choice makes itself. In all
honesty, do what I did and hire one of each coz a 3mile test drive doesn't tell you anything about how you get on with it - will you find the Elise
uncomfortable? Will you dislike the TVR's handling?

PS, Stretch to 13k and you can have my Chim next year!!

[jay_z]

Thanks every so much for the interesting replies... Keep em coming!!!!

Some very interesting points made.

Iguana:
The comparison between the TVR and the 456 / Elise and the 360 is EXACTLY what I have been thinking myself (Great minds think alike!!!) I believe the TVR to be a more in comparison to a GT type car, whereas the Elise is an out an out sports car with little in the way of creature comforts. Thinking along these lines the Elise wins hands down without question, but unfortunately it isn't that easy. AFTER ALL THE ELISE ISN'T A 360 MODENA!!!!

Kevinday:
The car (TVR/Elise) will be used as everyday transport, however, I can always rely on the misses motor for 'sensible' motoring needs. In terms of what I'll be using the car for: Hummmmm I doubt I'd use it for any track day work - although if I got bitten by the bug I couldn't swear to it. It will be used more as a 'lets have a little bit of fun' type car.

Trackdemon:
Thank you for the very detailed reply. It's fantastic to hear other peoples views on both of these cars. I agree with all the points you made regarding both of them, and I know in my heart that I want the TVR - BUT - my head keeps telling me different!!! I've hand a number of blasts in Chimeras' and enjoyed every single minute of it. The 4.0L was more than quick enough for my needs and pulled like a train, then there was that noise!!! Thinking along these lines the TVR wins hands down without question, but unfortunately it isn't that easy (WHERE'VE I HEARD THAT BEFORE).

All:
One thing that everybody agrees on is the quality of the car being purchased at this price. And again this might be a deciding factor. I really don't want to cripple myself buying this car, so the budget is pretty much stuck at 12K. The fact that I could buy a newer, lower mileage Elise might just swing it in its favour!!!!

A couple more points worth mentioning:

1) The car will be used to commute to work, which is a 8 mile trip which generally takes anywhere between 30mins to an hour (YES IT WOULD BE QUICKER TO WALK). I'm not sure if the TVR would be up to this kind of driving on a daily basis (OVER HEATING ETC.) I'm guessing the Rover K Series engine would be much more at home with this style of driving - YES/NO?

2) I know the TVR is the quicker car of the two. I'd really like to know how the Elise fairs in the low to mid range against the TVR, because lets face it that's more like 'Real World' driving.

3) What is an Elise like to live with on a day-to-day basis. My current car has all the Mod cons (CD/AIR CON/TCS/ABS etc etc) and I've got used to having them. I know it's going to be something of a shock going from all this to fk all. How did you find the transition?

Kev, Manu, Ajay, Ninja, Rich: How about some of your views???
Regards,
Jay.

[manu]

Jay - I honestly don't know mate - I've never driven either. It's verys simple - what do you want more of:
Power or chuckability?
If reliability is a something that you MUST have then I suppose ther can only be one choice - the Lotus. Saying that TVRs are just soo lairy and fast.....
That didn't help at all did it?

[ninja_eli]

Jay, I really am not very qualified to comment on either. I know both have problems, the Rover engine is not apparently the most reliable lump either. I don't know, really and truly a difficult one. The Elise is a fantastic car, but I think it could be difficult to live with (although everything is relative).

I don't know, hard call. I like the Chimaera's styling, but am certain that the Lotus has the better chassis. You can always improve power, but getting a chassis right is not so easy (I acknowledge you can ruin a set up though with too much power though).

Horses for courses, I guess. If it were my money, I pretty much would go for something different. For £12K I would get either a Supra TT, a 944 Turbo, 968, M3 Evo, or something else that is going to give me less grief. £12K is a lot of money for a car, and there are lots of performance cars out there at this price range. At the end of the day its what cooks your goose. Out of the two, I would go for the Elise, simply to enjoy its chassis. One other thing is if £12K is your limit, and you won't find a perfect one for that money, then neither are really a good bet at the bottom end price. If they go wrong, it can be big bills. The likelihood of the others I mentioned going wrong is less.

Good luck whatever you do, but do consider other cars, especially something that will fit your budget better with less likelihood of expense. I suspect the Lotus to be cheaper to run and repair should it be necessary. You could get lucky, but at £12K you need to be REALLY lucky!

[frostie]

Jay,

At 12k on a tight budget I would not go for the Chimaera. The later TVR's ( Griff onwards ) will typically have running costs in the £1-1.5K region. All of mine have be in this region.

Personally I think in your position the biggest factor in making the decision will be running costs and making sure you can get a good example preferably with some sort of warranty. The suggestion made earlier of a TVR S ( if a TVR takes your fancy ) was a good one as you can pick them up for under 10k which would leave some spare cash for emergencies.

All in IMHO of course.

Mark

[castex]

I'd say get the Lotus. My friend had a chim. Nice noise, lots of drama. The interior wears quickly, however, and that's a shame when it's done-up to look smart with all the leather, etc. The grunt is addictive, even for a passenger, but corners for him were a question of slamming on the brakes and crawling round. He is a big jessie, mind
Lotus is much starker, more purposeful. I love that about it. It's a wee racer. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Go on, buy one of those. You know you want to.

[456mgt]

On the way to work this morning, a chap in a blue Elise came hammering up behind me then carved off up a side road without slowing down that much. Very impressive; and you wouldn't have much trouble getting in and out Jay.

If it were me I'd just go along and try them out. I'd try an MR2 turbo as well- this WILL demand respect as it's mid engined with, IIRC, a tendency to oversteer.

Have fun!

Kev

[Arno]

TVR or Elise? Verrrry different animals..

At least you can get a Tubi exhaust for the Elise (Hi Manu! )

It definitely needs a better sounding exhaust than the standard one as it sounds like a sewing machine otherwise

Bye, Arno.

P.S. Yes I drive an Elise..

[ajaym]

Jay,

If it was my 12k and I really wanted to spend it I would go for the elise. As most people have said here 12k will get you a pretty rough chim. PLUS with the elise there is so much you can do to it in terms on modifications. Also its a real fun car to drive and you can really chuck it about. My choice would be the 111s but I think they are slightly more than 12k.

Practicality its the chim, but for reliability its the Elise along with fuel economy and it will be only about 4 years old compared to a 12k chim which will be about 10 years old.

[kevinday]

I have to disagree on the reliability front, a regularly used Rover-engined TVR is generally reliable, it is the cars that are not used that go wrong. Running costs will be more for the TVR but I would still recommend it, you will enjoy every journey with that V8 soundtrack.