Am I mental to be considering a 348ts?
Discussion
Hey guys, I just need to know if I've lost the plot, or if the thoughts I've been having today aren't totally crazy...
Basically, this summer, I turn 21 and will finally be in the position to buy one of my dream "realistic" cars, an Elise S2 111R. Now, whilst browsing the classifieds last night, I went into dreamer mode and started looking at the 348 and 355's. I stumbled across a LHD 348TS, which seemed to be a minter, and just for the hell of it, I got an insurance quote expecting to be laughing my head off when it came back...but I sat there wide eyed when the quote I received was significantly cheaper than the quote I had for the Lotus...I could actually insure a Ferrari, at a VERY reasonable price!
Now obviously, this isn't the sensible choice, it's much older, it's more likely that things will go bang and when they do, it'll be significantly more costly (gearbox for instance?) and I wouldn't be able to use it as much as the little Lotus...but it would be a dream come true and tick off one of the things I have to do before I die boxes!
So, is it an absolutely mental idea or not to be considering one? Would the Lotus or a TVR be more sensible? Will I end up going bankcrupt by owning one? I've noticed the prices seem to have leveled out around 20k for the time being, are they likely to rise again?
I've looked at the servicing/belt costs, and I can live with that, but what unexpected suprises could be lurking around the corner? And how much use do you think would we wise to get out of it?
Thanks for any input... :-)
Basically, this summer, I turn 21 and will finally be in the position to buy one of my dream "realistic" cars, an Elise S2 111R. Now, whilst browsing the classifieds last night, I went into dreamer mode and started looking at the 348 and 355's. I stumbled across a LHD 348TS, which seemed to be a minter, and just for the hell of it, I got an insurance quote expecting to be laughing my head off when it came back...but I sat there wide eyed when the quote I received was significantly cheaper than the quote I had for the Lotus...I could actually insure a Ferrari, at a VERY reasonable price!
Now obviously, this isn't the sensible choice, it's much older, it's more likely that things will go bang and when they do, it'll be significantly more costly (gearbox for instance?) and I wouldn't be able to use it as much as the little Lotus...but it would be a dream come true and tick off one of the things I have to do before I die boxes!
So, is it an absolutely mental idea or not to be considering one? Would the Lotus or a TVR be more sensible? Will I end up going bankcrupt by owning one? I've noticed the prices seem to have leveled out around 20k for the time being, are they likely to rise again?
I've looked at the servicing/belt costs, and I can live with that, but what unexpected suprises could be lurking around the corner? And how much use do you think would we wise to get out of it?
Thanks for any input... :-)
breakbeat said:
Basically, this summer, I turn 21
At 21 I had a TS ... a Renault 5 TS!It took me until I was 40 to get my dream car, a TVR 500 Griffith, then 41 until I got my first Ferrari, a gorgeous 348 Spider at a top dollar price of £40,000.
It had 20k miles on the clock and had only done 2k miles in the last year ... I had it one and a half weeks and promptly hammered it 3000 miles around Europe and the Alps on the inaugural EuroHoon road trip.
Fantastic! Only major jobs I had was a new clutch (about £750 fitted) and a new headlight motor (about £300) oh, and I cracked a couple of lenses when I drove it down to the south of Spain ... that was REALLY good fun
(so in other words, they can be driven!)
The 6,000 service is about £500 at a good indie and the 12,000 about £700. the big belt change, including the service is about £1,500.
Not sure what you mean about gearboxes, do they go a lot on Lotuses? The overall mechanicals on the 348 are fairly robust and the engine (touch wood) has no known weaknesses and is good for plenty of miles.
This is why I have happily returned to a 348 with 42k miles on the clock. It is the exact spec I wanted as I was looking for the purest combination I could find, hence it had to be: Rosso Corsa over Nero leather / Berlinetta, not Targa or Spider / and Left Hand Drive (you would not believe how much better the driving position is over RHD - it's to do with the pedal offset).
The cars are fairly simple mechanically so get one with SOLID SERVICE HISTORY and you should have a fine car. Occassionally some cars that have been imported can lose some of the early history, but if say the last 8 or 9 years in the UK has proven servicing that shows that it has been looked after, then this is a good sign.
As for value. You can never really tell but the general concencus is that they have pretty much bottomed out. For example, you could find the odd 308 for £18-20k a couple of years ago, but you won't find many, if any under £20k now. Same with the 348. As it becomes harder and harder to find good examples, demand starts to out-strip supply and the price goes up.
They are truly wonderful cars - try and get a 92/93 model that has the battery in the front and the later ignition system. Not critical but a small benefit. Your budget is NOT daft, you may have to go 1 or 2 grand more if you see a car you really love, but trust me, good LHD cars are out there.
This is what £21k can buy you:
A Ferrari at 21? As long as you can afford to run it then bloody good on you
LCUK has a Member who owns a 1970's Urraco... it has its problems but he's determined to keep it... he's about the same age as you are.
If you really, really must have that exact Ferrari right now and tick that box so soon, then go for it... you may be squashed under the biggest-ever storm of rampant, enraged turnips next Tuesday afternoon but:
really there's no rush, take your time - there are plenty of cars out there you can play with... enjoy having and using those choices before you go towards the upper edge of the scale - at least the chap in LCUK has his day-to-day Seicento with more extra bits than a dozen catalogues full of extra bits for small cars have...
Like many other PH folk, when I was 20 I had only just got around to buying my first non-moped motorbike... It had a really loud (expansion chamber) exhaust and was 2-stroke, single cylinder Kawasaki AR80. It was green and kind of cool-cute, was flat out at 65mph and people could tell when I was on my way to see them for some minutes before I actually got there... it would 'lose' it's L plates all the time, hence my first ever licence points...
Mind you, apart from anything else, there were a number of even more interesting and pressing matters than having and using cars and bikes which were of much more concern when I was 20.
Beer was getting expensive at nearly 65p for a pint, the rent for my (admittedly quite large) flat was over £30 - just for one week!! and a regular, reliable supply of 'basil' for occasional smoking was a concern as well.
Girls were, on average, less prone to getting very blind drunk and violent like they seem to do these days, but were frequently far more interested in a number of utterly no-strings-attached 'activities'...
This was quite a while ago and very in 'the past'.
The past is another country; they do things differently there.
If you really, really must have that exact Ferrari right now and tick that box so soon, then go for it... you may be squashed under the biggest-ever storm of rampant, enraged turnips next Tuesday afternoon but:
really there's no rush, take your time - there are plenty of cars out there you can play with... enjoy having and using those choices before you go towards the upper edge of the scale - at least the chap in LCUK has his day-to-day Seicento with more extra bits than a dozen catalogues full of extra bits for small cars have...
Like many other PH folk, when I was 20 I had only just got around to buying my first non-moped motorbike... It had a really loud (expansion chamber) exhaust and was 2-stroke, single cylinder Kawasaki AR80. It was green and kind of cool-cute, was flat out at 65mph and people could tell when I was on my way to see them for some minutes before I actually got there... it would 'lose' it's L plates all the time, hence my first ever licence points...
Mind you, apart from anything else, there were a number of even more interesting and pressing matters than having and using cars and bikes which were of much more concern when I was 20.
Beer was getting expensive at nearly 65p for a pint, the rent for my (admittedly quite large) flat was over £30 - just for one week!! and a regular, reliable supply of 'basil' for occasional smoking was a concern as well.
Girls were, on average, less prone to getting very blind drunk and violent like they seem to do these days, but were frequently far more interested in a number of utterly no-strings-attached 'activities'...
This was quite a while ago and very in 'the past'.
The past is another country; they do things differently there.
XXVIII said:
The past is another country; they do things differently there.
You got the Green Goddess up north yet?
oh, and as for driving the 348 every day. I would if I had to but the 1 mile commute wouldn't do it any favours. You are best to have a daily hack but, at £20-22k the beauty is that you don't have to worry about putting miles on it as you're never going to lose that much money
Buy the Elise, bigger fun factor in the real world,probably as quick if not quicker A to B, 38mpg and big service is £500 tops.I admit that a Ferrari has the WOW and feel good factor but sometimes thinking with your head is the only sensible option.I have also been dreaming about a used 360 this summer as there is a Yellow 99 plate 10miles from me for £44K? Very tempted but depending on who you talk to, they can cost between 1K to 5k a year if you actually drive them which i assume is your reason for buying it.
You are still young so by the time you are 25 you can then live the Ferrari dream with one of the more modern cars.
You are still young so by the time you are 25 you can then live the Ferrari dream with one of the more modern cars.
If your considering a 348 but want the Lotus heritage then how about an Esprit? A GT3 will be reliable, have the Ferrari wow factor, faster than a 348 & is a sweet handling car. A V8 Esprit is also well in budget but for every day use the GT3 (or an S4) would be the choice.
But you have to want to have one. If not it can break you in half, spit you out & leave you to die.
But you have to want to have one. If not it can break you in half, spit you out & leave you to die.
Had a 348 for a year and it didnt cost me a penny in repairs - very reliable. Highly likey to be more reliable than a TVR and probably more sensible! As for the lotus, a fine car, great racer and fun on the track, but it isnt in the same league. The ferrari has a magical quality that no other marque will give you. I loved my 348 and thought it was a great car.
I bought my 348 when I was very young and dont see a problem with it, plenty of other ferraris to follow it when you get older (I suspect you might suffer a little jealousy from others though!). Make sure you get it inspected by a specialist before you buy.
They are cheap to insure (Michael Ward charge tiny amount to insure them).
Petrol will be your biggest cost!
Buy one, you wont regret it, save for the life long addiction to ferrari that will probably follow!!!!!!!!
I bought my 348 when I was very young and dont see a problem with it, plenty of other ferraris to follow it when you get older (I suspect you might suffer a little jealousy from others though!). Make sure you get it inspected by a specialist before you buy.
They are cheap to insure (Michael Ward charge tiny amount to insure them).
Petrol will be your biggest cost!
Buy one, you wont regret it, save for the life long addiction to ferrari that will probably follow!!!!!!!!
burriana said:
You got the Green Goddess up north yet?
Nope! It's had to be placed in another garage whilst some work is happening near where it usually lives.
Apparently, this 'other' garage is a) carpeted, b) heated and c) came with a gentle ask of 'are you OK with that'?
...
...I had to say that I thought I was!
I was able to give Kermit / the GG / the Raging Bull(frog) a whole page in the last edition of LCUK's magazine - didn't look too bad after a long-ish run and as you may have seen, there is a 5 page article with the car in Auto Italia 141. Giordanelli questioned whether I was a gentleman in the article, to which I cannot possibly comment and at least I wouldn't think of writing something like that, especially after all I've done to help him/them in the last few years
2007 was the first year since 1997 when the only Lamborghini I drove was my own car and also the first year since I bought it in '01 when I was actually able to drive the car much at all.
but no, it's not up here as yet - life isn't altogether perfect, that's because that's life that is...
I'm having a extended session editing photographs for a new truck magazine I'm designing this morning and a whistful moment or two remembering the smell of 2 stroke oil and the ripping calico sound of my little green AR80's loud pipe.
(and not recalling exactly what I did with somebody very-curvy on a sunny but cold day like today in 1983, well, not too much...)
Thank you for all the informative replies guys, and for actually not laughing in my face as my friends have done. Makes me feel slightly less stupid for considering the idea.
I have always been passionate about the Elise, down to the point where I've made many sacrifices so that I can be in the position to own one when the insurance companies let me! And the reason for wanting a Ferrari 348 is not the pose factor, or to have a set of Ferrari keys, but because ever since I've been a kid, the looks, the sound, the very sight of one put a massive smile on my face and I can't even begin to think of how I'd feel actually having the keys handed over to me of my very own F-car...even saying it makes me feel like it's utterly ridiculous but in the grand scheme of things, I think that if I found a good example, kept it in the garage as a second car and looked after it as well as I've looked after all of my previous cars, I could possibly be better off after a few years than running an Elise as the depreciation looks like it will hit me much less (if at all) than a new-ish Elise and I would also not use it as much (although it would be no garage queen that's for sure!). I guess it's the fact that the Ferrari name and the cars in general mean so much to me and have always been such a dream that the thought of actually buying one doesn't seem real, I never thought it'd be possible...only yesterday did I realise I could actually make the dream come true.
I'm prepared to live with the obvious downfalls of owning an older Ferrari, and I'm aware of the gearbox issues (2nd gear when cold etc.) and the servicing costs but I don't want anything major to go bang resulting in me losing a mass of money on it. That's my only genuinely real worry.
At the end of the day, I have a friend who has just spunked £18,000 on a new Focus ST and is spending far more on insurance than I was quoted for the 348 so this seems to make a Ferrari seem even less silly?
So if I was to buy a nice example, garage it, take it out on weekends and the odd hoon over Europe, but ultimately keep it is a toy, do you think it'd be a realistic choice? Besides the servicing etc. I wouldn't be in for any nasty suprises along the way? It seems like it's reliable enough to make a few trips overseas...
Thanks for your time everyone.
I have always been passionate about the Elise, down to the point where I've made many sacrifices so that I can be in the position to own one when the insurance companies let me! And the reason for wanting a Ferrari 348 is not the pose factor, or to have a set of Ferrari keys, but because ever since I've been a kid, the looks, the sound, the very sight of one put a massive smile on my face and I can't even begin to think of how I'd feel actually having the keys handed over to me of my very own F-car...even saying it makes me feel like it's utterly ridiculous but in the grand scheme of things, I think that if I found a good example, kept it in the garage as a second car and looked after it as well as I've looked after all of my previous cars, I could possibly be better off after a few years than running an Elise as the depreciation looks like it will hit me much less (if at all) than a new-ish Elise and I would also not use it as much (although it would be no garage queen that's for sure!). I guess it's the fact that the Ferrari name and the cars in general mean so much to me and have always been such a dream that the thought of actually buying one doesn't seem real, I never thought it'd be possible...only yesterday did I realise I could actually make the dream come true.
I'm prepared to live with the obvious downfalls of owning an older Ferrari, and I'm aware of the gearbox issues (2nd gear when cold etc.) and the servicing costs but I don't want anything major to go bang resulting in me losing a mass of money on it. That's my only genuinely real worry.
At the end of the day, I have a friend who has just spunked £18,000 on a new Focus ST and is spending far more on insurance than I was quoted for the 348 so this seems to make a Ferrari seem even less silly?
So if I was to buy a nice example, garage it, take it out on weekends and the odd hoon over Europe, but ultimately keep it is a toy, do you think it'd be a realistic choice? Besides the servicing etc. I wouldn't be in for any nasty suprises along the way? It seems like it's reliable enough to make a few trips overseas...
Thanks for your time everyone.
I am into my lotuses... on my 3rd Elise (a 111R), also have an s1 Exige, previously owned 3 Esprits and sold an Esprit GT3 to make way for my F355 GTB last year. Now that I have a Ferrari I wouldnt want to be without one so I wouldn't want it to seem like I am talking you out of a Ferrari. However unless you really want to own a Ferrari at the moment or unless you are the sort of guy who can own a car without having one eye on the running costs, the potential upkeep and the "what-if-it-all-goes-bang-and-pear-shaped" thoughts then I think you will have a more enjoyable time owning the Elise. They are fanstastic cars to drive and the upkeep and servicing costs are not high. Thats my 2/d worth anyhow.
breakbeat said:
So if I was to buy a nice example, garage it, take it out on weekends and the odd hoon over Europe, but ultimately keep it is a toy, do you think it'd be a realistic choice? Besides the servicing etc. I wouldn't be in for any nasty suprises along the way? It seems like it's reliable enough to make a few trips overseas...
Read my post again and look at the pictures ... I did 13,000 miles in mine in one year as a "sunday" car There are never any guarantees, but they are honestly a very well put together car. Just make sure you have enough money to live as well as have the Ferrari.
Thanks again guys.
While I adore the Elise 111R, it will never give you that feeling that a Ferrari does inside.
It's just weather I go with my heart or my head.
I don't mind the initial outlay but it would break my heart not to give the 348 the care it needs, while I'd do my best, I'm not one that likes to cut corners, especially not with a car like this. Is it ever worthwhile doing services yourself on them? Or best to take them to a dealer to get the receipts/stamps etc?
You guys have been a great help, although now I am more for the idea than I was before...is that a good thing or a bad thing? Haha.
While I adore the Elise 111R, it will never give you that feeling that a Ferrari does inside.
It's just weather I go with my heart or my head.
I don't mind the initial outlay but it would break my heart not to give the 348 the care it needs, while I'd do my best, I'm not one that likes to cut corners, especially not with a car like this. Is it ever worthwhile doing services yourself on them? Or best to take them to a dealer to get the receipts/stamps etc?
You guys have been a great help, although now I am more for the idea than I was before...is that a good thing or a bad thing? Haha.
breakbeat said:
Is it ever worthwhile doing services yourself on them? Or best to take them to a dealer to get the receipts/stamps etc?
Some do, and if you can and it's a keeper then fine ... but if you may want to sell it in a few years then the stamped service history becomes very valuable.Good on you mate.
When I was 21 I was still taking the bus
At the end of the day, you have to decide what YOU really want. At the risk of sounding cheesy, buy with your heart and not with your head.
Could you really live with yourself if you did buy the Lotus? Everytime you went to the garage, would you be wishing you had the Ferrari instead?
Good luck and keep us informed!
When I was 21 I was still taking the bus
At the end of the day, you have to decide what YOU really want. At the risk of sounding cheesy, buy with your heart and not with your head.
Could you really live with yourself if you did buy the Lotus? Everytime you went to the garage, would you be wishing you had the Ferrari instead?
Good luck and keep us informed!
I can tell you one thing for certain, you woulnt regret getting the elise. A fantastic car even by ferrari standards. However as others have said here, its something only you can decide, if you can afford the Ferrari, running costs and all, and if its what you want then get it.
Trust your gut instinct, it rarely lies.
Trust your gut instinct, it rarely lies.
When I was out looking for my Diablo, I noticed 3 very different kinds of cars:
If you just want to own it, and re-sell the car with a profit after 5 years, get a garage queen, take it out 2-3 times a year for a day, and keep it maintained at a Ferrari dealership. Definately NOT my choice of car... If you suddenly use them more, they will often break.
If you want to use it often, and use it hard, get a Driver's car... Full history is obligatory... Don't mind the paintwork, italians don't know how to paint a car, and it's much cheaper to paint it than it is to rebuild an engine... Keep it serviced at an independant specialist, prices are usually "fair", as long as you don't crash it...
Avoid the rubbish ones... Even with a quick paintjob they might look good, but they are a money pit...
If it's your only car, go with a new Lotus, they now have Toyota engines which are almost bomb-proof. If you have a daily runabout, get a Ferrari, up the puchase budget now, to avoid silly costs and problems later...
Hope this helps...
- Garage Queens: Typically VERY low mileage, immaculate bodywork and interior, usually yearly dealerstamp
- Driver's Cars: Typically HIGH (relatively speaking) mileage, repainted, usually stone chips, rarely original, signs of use on the inside, loads of invoices from specialist independant garages
- Rubbish Cars= Usually high mileage, lousy bodywork, shady history, often advertised with a defect, ...
If you just want to own it, and re-sell the car with a profit after 5 years, get a garage queen, take it out 2-3 times a year for a day, and keep it maintained at a Ferrari dealership. Definately NOT my choice of car... If you suddenly use them more, they will often break.
If you want to use it often, and use it hard, get a Driver's car... Full history is obligatory... Don't mind the paintwork, italians don't know how to paint a car, and it's much cheaper to paint it than it is to rebuild an engine... Keep it serviced at an independant specialist, prices are usually "fair", as long as you don't crash it...
Avoid the rubbish ones... Even with a quick paintjob they might look good, but they are a money pit...
If it's your only car, go with a new Lotus, they now have Toyota engines which are almost bomb-proof. If you have a daily runabout, get a Ferrari, up the puchase budget now, to avoid silly costs and problems later...
Hope this helps...
Thanks for all the comments guys, you have all really helped me to decide. I always get people telling me to think with my head, but for once to be told to go with your heart is very refreshing!
Everyone I have mentioned that I am even considering it to, has either laughed at me or thought I had gone crazy!
What I do really want is a keeper, this will be a long term car. If I go for the Lotus, it'll be used a lot more than a 348 though...I imagine it'll also be a lot more reliable, with less things to worry about going wrong on an S2, but I can't help but think I'll always have it in my head "I could have had the 348..." and you only live once don't you.
I guess even if I changed my mind, with the 348 I can sell it on for much less of a loss than an Elise, as a new-ish one is going to depreciate fairly quickly, especially with the added mileage I'd be doing over the 348.
I'm glad I'm not totally stupid for considering it.
Everyone I have mentioned that I am even considering it to, has either laughed at me or thought I had gone crazy!
What I do really want is a keeper, this will be a long term car. If I go for the Lotus, it'll be used a lot more than a 348 though...I imagine it'll also be a lot more reliable, with less things to worry about going wrong on an S2, but I can't help but think I'll always have it in my head "I could have had the 348..." and you only live once don't you.
I guess even if I changed my mind, with the 348 I can sell it on for much less of a loss than an Elise, as a new-ish one is going to depreciate fairly quickly, especially with the added mileage I'd be doing over the 348.
I'm glad I'm not totally stupid for considering it.
Take a 348 out on a test drive - You may be suprised/disapointed with how old if feels and dare i say it, slow it feels, handlings not upto much either compared to modern quick hatchbacks never mind an Elise. I grew up loving the Lotus Esprit since Bond took it under water and hated the criticism the car got in publications with regards to its build quality as all i could see was those beautiful lines and the minus 5 seconds 0-60 acceleration times BUT when i "grew up" and could actually aford one, i took an Esprit S4 out from Murrays in Edinburgh and i was heartbroken with how old and creeky it felt,from the door handles to the rubber seals, i just knew deep down that it would be more hassle than it was worth so i bought an Elise instead.
I would advise to buy the Elise and hold out for a 355 or 360 in 3-4 years time, no offence to anyone here that has a 348 but its just not a good idea for a 21 year old unless you just want to look at it.
I would advise to buy the Elise and hold out for a 355 or 360 in 3-4 years time, no offence to anyone here that has a 348 but its just not a good idea for a 21 year old unless you just want to look at it.
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