Supply & Demand!
Discussion
Good point about the porkers!
I don't think there has ever been this level or volume of supercars available / bought / sold in the UK ever!
There has been a palpable shift upwards in car ownership over the last 10 years.
When I was a kid (70's/80's) everyone used to drive fords / vauxhalls etc and there would be an occasional bim or merc on your road. Every now and again you'd see a porsche. VERY rarely you'd see a Ferrari and I don't think I ever saw a Lambo 'in the wild' as a kid.
NOW... LOADS of people have bims and mercs... All the types of people who used to own those now drive porsches, astons (7's sold sheet loads and look what a 7 is worth now!
) 430's or 360s. Gallardos almost fall into the same bracket. The very top end people who used to buy Lambos 'back in the day' now have Enzos / Zondas etc
IIRC they only ever sold 170 RHD Diablos in all the time they were being made (is that about right?) I have no idea of the numbers but I can't imagine many or any more 308/328/testarossas/ 355(?) etc were sold.
There is a lot of discussion on here about 430 prices, R8's and values in general... Trying to figure out where they're going and where they will stop.
Everyone presumes that they will stop just above the value of their predecessors but those were sold at a fraction of the volume that the last 2(ish) generations have sold!
I can't help thinking the DB7 is kind of an indicator of what will happen and they're still falling! They're a victim of their own success.
I'm not trying to talk anything up or down.
Do I really have a major point or an answer? No, not really, it's more of an observation of interesting empirical data, we have never been in a position like this before. I thought that as educated / intellgent people in a similar position / with a similar interest, you might also find it an intriguing situation.
I don't think there has ever been this level or volume of supercars available / bought / sold in the UK ever!
There has been a palpable shift upwards in car ownership over the last 10 years.
When I was a kid (70's/80's) everyone used to drive fords / vauxhalls etc and there would be an occasional bim or merc on your road. Every now and again you'd see a porsche. VERY rarely you'd see a Ferrari and I don't think I ever saw a Lambo 'in the wild' as a kid.
NOW... LOADS of people have bims and mercs... All the types of people who used to own those now drive porsches, astons (7's sold sheet loads and look what a 7 is worth now!
) 430's or 360s. Gallardos almost fall into the same bracket. The very top end people who used to buy Lambos 'back in the day' now have Enzos / Zondas etcIIRC they only ever sold 170 RHD Diablos in all the time they were being made (is that about right?) I have no idea of the numbers but I can't imagine many or any more 308/328/testarossas/ 355(?) etc were sold.
There is a lot of discussion on here about 430 prices, R8's and values in general... Trying to figure out where they're going and where they will stop.
Everyone presumes that they will stop just above the value of their predecessors but those were sold at a fraction of the volume that the last 2(ish) generations have sold!
I can't help thinking the DB7 is kind of an indicator of what will happen and they're still falling! They're a victim of their own success.
I'm not trying to talk anything up or down.
Do I really have a major point or an answer? No, not really, it's more of an observation of interesting empirical data, we have never been in a position like this before. I thought that as educated / intellgent people in a similar position / with a similar interest, you might also find it an intriguing situation.
One of the biggest reasons there are so many high cost cars available is(was)the amount of people willing to put these cars on credit! Large balloon payments keeping repayments low have had a large effect on ability to pay. Credit has become part of our culture, whereas in the old days people were far more prudent. I am only 30 but dislike the use of credit, I guess I was brought up 'old school'.
I would assume technology would have something to do with the increases in car sales as well.
With every new model of Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche they are becoming easier to use on a daily basis, more reliable, longer servicing periods and a bigger dealer network. All of these things make it much much easier to own and use such a car every day.
10-15 years ago I doubt anyone would dream of putting 20k miles on their Lambo, for fear of 1) it would probably break before getting anywhere near that mileage, (if not breakdown on the commute to work for the one day you decided to sit in traffic with it) and 2) the depreciation when selling compared to the 90% of other 'supercars' that complete <10k miles in its lifetime back then.
In the last 5 years everything is so much more accessible:
1) credit
2) warrantee period (4 years now in some)
3) servicing intervals
4) dealer accessibility
5) usability
6) reliability
All in all it’s a pretty good combination for ever increasing sales as more and more added to that list over the last 10-15 years. (however with a lack of number 1 which probably has 40% of the weight of all of the above, things will slow down as we are seeing)
With every new model of Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche they are becoming easier to use on a daily basis, more reliable, longer servicing periods and a bigger dealer network. All of these things make it much much easier to own and use such a car every day.
10-15 years ago I doubt anyone would dream of putting 20k miles on their Lambo, for fear of 1) it would probably break before getting anywhere near that mileage, (if not breakdown on the commute to work for the one day you decided to sit in traffic with it) and 2) the depreciation when selling compared to the 90% of other 'supercars' that complete <10k miles in its lifetime back then.
In the last 5 years everything is so much more accessible:
1) credit
2) warrantee period (4 years now in some)
3) servicing intervals
4) dealer accessibility
5) usability
6) reliability
All in all it’s a pretty good combination for ever increasing sales as more and more added to that list over the last 10-15 years. (however with a lack of number 1 which probably has 40% of the weight of all of the above, things will slow down as we are seeing)
Chris355 said:
One of the biggest reasons there are so many high cost cars available is(was)the amount of people willing to put these cars on credit! Large balloon payments keeping repayments low have had a large effect on ability to pay.
I am sure it really is that simple. I know quite a few folk who have lived the good life for the past 6-7 years being comfortably able to afford the repayments needed to fund their lifestyle in terms of houses, cars, luxuries etc. Good on them. At the moment the costs have increased and the comfort factor has tightened a bit and they can still afford a comfortable lifestyle but perhaps with a nearly new Jag or a Merc rather than a Ferrari or a Porsche. Thats no slight on folk financing stuff and I am sure makes good sense for the majority of those involved.renmure said:
Chris355 said:
One of the biggest reasons there are so many high cost cars available is(was)the amount of people willing to put these cars on credit! Large balloon payments keeping repayments low have had a large effect on ability to pay.
I am sure it really is that simple. I know quite a few folk who have lived the good life for the past 6-7 years being comfortably able to afford the repayments needed to fund their lifestyle in terms of houses, cars, luxuries etc. Good on them. At the moment the costs have increased and the comfort factor has tightened a bit and they can still afford a comfortable lifestyle but perhaps with a nearly new Jag or a Merc rather than a Ferrari or a Porsche. Thats no slight on folk financing stuff and I am sure makes good sense for the majority of those involved.Depends what you define as a bargain ? (I bet in a month or two it won't be a bargain)
Credit is still cheap but it is is availability that's the issue today.
It's better getting something on cheap credit and using you money else where for a better return (ie property/own business etc). I wish I'd done that over the last 10 years instead of the old traditionally way of saving etc.
Credit is still cheap but it is is availability that's the issue today.
It's better getting something on cheap credit and using you money else where for a better return (ie property/own business etc). I wish I'd done that over the last 10 years instead of the old traditionally way of saving etc.
It's not there (mostly) to be looked at!Isn't the trick with Finanace to just pay for the depreciation.
So say 100k car is down to 70k after 3 years then you should finance the 30k and leave the rest on baloon and let the cars resale value pay that off.
If you do have the 70k then put it on deposit somewhere to offset some of the interest.
Or is that a bit simplistic.
So say 100k car is down to 70k after 3 years then you should finance the 30k and leave the rest on baloon and let the cars resale value pay that off.
If you do have the 70k then put it on deposit somewhere to offset some of the interest.
Or is that a bit simplistic.
bromers2 said:
Credit is still cheap but it is is availability that's the issue today.
It's better getting something on cheap credit and using you money else where for a better return (ie property/own business etc). I wish I'd done that over the last 10 years instead of the old traditionally way of saving etc.
'Credit availability' and 'cost of credit' was much better a year ago or more as the economic situation was quite buoyant and banks were lending money rather readily and at good rates. Try and do a search for comparable loans now and it's a much harder task.It's better getting something on cheap credit and using you money else where for a better return (ie property/own business etc). I wish I'd done that over the last 10 years instead of the old traditionally way of saving etc.
With houses - a capital gains tax free investment! Great investment if you did this 5-10 years ago. However in the last 5 years it has also prevented a generation of first-time buyers from joining the ladder, and the higher disposable incomes has probably helped 'fuel' some of the car buying. Now with house prices falling, but with credit/mortgages tougher to get, there will be a market of first time buyers waiting to buy.
So what I'm trying to say is that (and I hate these phrases) it's a 'buyers market' and a great time to invest in the 'credit crunch' - in cars or otherwise, because prices are generally low, and in the long term hopefully financial prospects will improve. However on the flp side, is the cost of oil/petrol and new technologies (bio fuels, electric/tesla cars) that may altogether prohibit their gas guzzling anecstors.
So theres my tuppence on this random ramblings thread, just glad I've decided to go for a 348, so taking my time and looking for the right one at the moment!! Well either that or an Exige :-)
Edited by shirazjiwa on Sunday 31st August 10:07
Callughan said:
Don't forget the 911's have to be split into 997,996,993etc and more models available in each variant.
Porsche sold 30,000 997's last year compared with how many 430's? 4000? for that reason there will always be more Porsches for sale.Edited by Callughan on Sunday 31st August 15:30
++internet humour filter at work!++
I was teasing by implying that to all us non-Porsche owners they all look the same.
I don't know a 997 from a 999. Can't say I much care either!
They're either *really old* James Dean type ones, 80's style ones with the big ol' whale-tail... or new ones!
(with the sole expection of the GT3 RS - and that's only because it says so on the side!)
That's about the limit of my interest and knowledge I'm afraid!
I was teasing by implying that to all us non-Porsche owners they all look the same.
I don't know a 997 from a 999. Can't say I much care either!
They're either *really old* James Dean type ones, 80's style ones with the big ol' whale-tail... or new ones!
(with the sole expection of the GT3 RS - and that's only because it says so on the side!)
That's about the limit of my interest and knowledge I'm afraid!
Edited by evil_dr_fish on Monday 1st September 18:01
evil_dr_fish said:
I don't know a 997 from a 999.
A 997 is something that tends to get crashed.A 999 is something that comes to help after the crash.
What???
evil_dr_fish said:
IIRC they only ever sold 170 RHD Diablos in all the time they were being made (is that about right?) I have no idea of the numbers but I can't imagine many or any more 308/328/testarossas/ 355(?) etc were sold.
UK RHD FERRARI SALES308 GT4 = 553
308 GTB = 365
308 GTS = 184
BB512 = 101
BB 512i = 42
308 GTBi = 42
308 GTSi = 67
Mondial 8 = 145
308 GTB QV = 74
308 GTS QV = 233
Mondial QV = 152
Mondial QV Cab = 24
GTO = 20 (All LHD)
Testarossa = 438
Mondial 3.2 = 91
Mondial 3.2 cab = 57
412 GT = 85
328 GTB = 130 (53 ABS)
328 GTS = 542 (292 ABS)
Mondial t = 45 (3 Valeao)
Mondial t cab = 51 (5 Valeao)
348 tb = 130
348 ts = 261
512 TR = 88 (38 ABS)
348 spider = 68
348 GTB = 14 (Only 2 in black and only 1 with a scud stripe
) 348 GTS = 15
348 GTC = 8
F512M = 41
355 Spider = ???
355 GTS = ???
355 GTB = ???
360 Spider = 129,678 ??
360 Coupe = 1,563,876 ??
360 Stradale = ??
430 Spider = ??
430 Coupe = ??
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