Will Manual Ferraris become more valuable than F1 ones?
Discussion
I was having a think last night and came to the conclusion that a Manual F355/360/F430 might be a better long term investment than any of their F1 counterparts. The reasoning is that with the arrival of the 458, a traditional manual gearbox option with the gorgeous Ferrari open gate is no longer available (although no doubt clever tuning outfits somewhere will be able to create a manual retrofit for a small fortune!). Notwithstanding the fact that the F1 gearboxes may give a better drive (depending on your criteria), as more of the previously mentioned cars fall into the budget of larger groups of 'ordinary' people (myself for instance), I believe these people (like me) will want to own a manual as they have been so iconic over the years. When I and any of my friends daydreamed at school and imagined changing gears in a bright red Ferrari at 8k rpm, engine screaming, roof down in the sunshine with hot girl in the passenger seat, it always conjured the feel of the cold metal in my hand, the "snak...snak" sound as I shift through the gate and the mechanical feel and satisfaction of sensing cogs engage thereby goading you to give it even more beans.
It was never by flicking a poxy little paddle and having 18 supercomputers change the gear so quickly you barely realise anything has happened! And the fact isn't changed in my head nowadays by knowing it may make me 0.2s per lap faster around Fiorano! I think the issue may even be exacerbated by the fact that paddleshift will no doubt become more and more common in regular cars as time passes, thus making it less special with manual gearboxes becoming the rare, sought after spec.
Thoughts?
It was never by flicking a poxy little paddle and having 18 supercomputers change the gear so quickly you barely realise anything has happened! And the fact isn't changed in my head nowadays by knowing it may make me 0.2s per lap faster around Fiorano! I think the issue may even be exacerbated by the fact that paddleshift will no doubt become more and more common in regular cars as time passes, thus making it less special with manual gearboxes becoming the rare, sought after spec.
Thoughts?
IMO i believe that the benefits of the manual gear box will be apparent in about 10 years time. The 355/360/550/456s manuals will be the only cars that the home mechanic would be able to fix themselves. There are lots of people who now work on there own 355s and 360. They perform all types of services from clutch changes right up to engine removals.
As for the new breed of F1 paddle shifters, along with even more sophisticated electronic suspension systems and overly complex engine management systems.......Unless you have a motor sport electrical engineering degree, you can eat cake
No wonder the 246 Dino and 512 Boxer guys always have big smiles on there faces
As for the new breed of F1 paddle shifters, along with even more sophisticated electronic suspension systems and overly complex engine management systems.......Unless you have a motor sport electrical engineering degree, you can eat cake
No wonder the 246 Dino and 512 Boxer guys always have big smiles on there faces
Often thought the same. The F1 shift is attractive as 'new' technology only. I think the manual shift will age much better in say a 355 in 15 years time than the F1 shift will.
That's the problem with these cars stuffed full of current 'state of the art' technology. Nothing dates faster than new technology. How do you think a 458 will look and operate in 30 years time?
All you need is a wheel, a stick and three pedals.
That's the problem with these cars stuffed full of current 'state of the art' technology. Nothing dates faster than new technology. How do you think a 458 will look and operate in 30 years time?
All you need is a wheel, a stick and three pedals.
I think manuals will definitely fare better as classics. Think about it - the high tech stuff is usually more likely to break, more expensive to fix when it does and will be harder to source repair solutions for once the technology becomes obsolete - not very attractive to someone who buys an old car and has a relatively small budget for running it. You only have to compare the residuals of manual E36 BMW M3s and SMG E36 BMW M3s to see what I'm talking about. These super-hi-tech cars are fine while under warranty and the technology has manufacturer support, but they're going to be pretty useless once they're out of date. Imagine it, 20 years down the line, bloke needs his "classic" Ferrari F458 fixing... Noone can fix the car's software because it's no longer supported, new software can't be installed because the hardware is too old, only solution is to break the car for spares and hope you've got enough cash left to buy a manual Ferrari from before the high-tech era... but manual values will have firmed-up, so not likely.
Got to be manual everytime - surely driving a true sportscar is about driver involvement and actually participating in the drive - I'm sure manuals will become the cars to have for individuals above a certain age - whereas the "yoof of today" who grow up with paddle shift probably won't have a clue how to drive a manual ( God I sound more like my Dad everyday !)
I can't really imagine that the world would get too excited if Stirling Moss had won the Mille Miglia in a paddle shift Mercedes !
I can't really imagine that the world would get too excited if Stirling Moss had won the Mille Miglia in a paddle shift Mercedes !
I think there are 4 issues at play that will see manual do best
Rarity, classic values are aided greatly by rarity, which is why i think the 355, will equal or beat the 360 come resale 20 years from now, they made a lot less of them
Feel, Manual gearboxes are more tactile than buttons on a wheel, classic cars appeal to people who hard back to the good old days, most classic's are manual not auto and when auto's and manuals are available manuals nearly always win out even on cars were you would think auto would the be the prefered option (Classic Jag's spring to mind).
People buying old cars are not doing so for improved ride, handling and performance, there doing it for the feel/style that is only available on old cars, due to there more agriculteral nature
Cost, clearly this favours manuals although i expect parts etc for F1 systems to be availble quite readily, while todays teck may seem uber complicated now, it's not a great stretch of the imagination to think it might seem quite simple compared to the teck of 2030
Performance, cars performance improves, newer cars go quicker, ride better, handle better etc in all those tangible area's of performance, new beats old, it's the more intangible area's were classic's appeal, things like feel, style. I've no doubt a F1 box of the future will be vastly better than one of today, just like todays are vastly better than those of yesterday.
The problem is the system has no intangible feel, only a tangible one if that makes sense, it's quality is measured only in how effecively it performs it's action not how it feels in it's action, pushing a button is pushing a button at the end of the day, and it's how the teck reacts to that button push that is a measure of peoples quality perceptions, this does not favour old vs new at all
A newer faster/smoother shifting F1 box will always be better than a old F1 box on every level, Manuals are measured far more on feel, yes 6 speeds are better than 5, but for most people whats important is how the lever feels in you hand and this is very subjective to peoples preferance, thus shifting through the gate on a 360 or 328 is going to feel differanct, some will prefer the shifter in the 360, others the older school feel of the 328, with a F1 system i doubt anyone would prefer the 355 over the 430 and i expect that to be the case in 10 years from now when the latest and greatest F1 is compared to the now old system on the 430
F1 boxes will not be desirable in the classic car world until new versions offer less of an interactive experiance than older ones, people who buy classic's are not buying into flashy teck, thus i think manuals will be far more in demand, of course this is all cystal ball time really as who knows were classic values will be in the future, i think one of the big + points of current classics is there backwards compatable with current hardware, they all have petrol engines, i wonder what the effect of moving aways from petrol power will have on classic values, especially if we get to a point were petrol is no longer widely available due to alternate fuels being what new vehicles demand
Rarity, classic values are aided greatly by rarity, which is why i think the 355, will equal or beat the 360 come resale 20 years from now, they made a lot less of them
Feel, Manual gearboxes are more tactile than buttons on a wheel, classic cars appeal to people who hard back to the good old days, most classic's are manual not auto and when auto's and manuals are available manuals nearly always win out even on cars were you would think auto would the be the prefered option (Classic Jag's spring to mind).
People buying old cars are not doing so for improved ride, handling and performance, there doing it for the feel/style that is only available on old cars, due to there more agriculteral nature
Cost, clearly this favours manuals although i expect parts etc for F1 systems to be availble quite readily, while todays teck may seem uber complicated now, it's not a great stretch of the imagination to think it might seem quite simple compared to the teck of 2030
Performance, cars performance improves, newer cars go quicker, ride better, handle better etc in all those tangible area's of performance, new beats old, it's the more intangible area's were classic's appeal, things like feel, style. I've no doubt a F1 box of the future will be vastly better than one of today, just like todays are vastly better than those of yesterday.
The problem is the system has no intangible feel, only a tangible one if that makes sense, it's quality is measured only in how effecively it performs it's action not how it feels in it's action, pushing a button is pushing a button at the end of the day, and it's how the teck reacts to that button push that is a measure of peoples quality perceptions, this does not favour old vs new at all
A newer faster/smoother shifting F1 box will always be better than a old F1 box on every level, Manuals are measured far more on feel, yes 6 speeds are better than 5, but for most people whats important is how the lever feels in you hand and this is very subjective to peoples preferance, thus shifting through the gate on a 360 or 328 is going to feel differanct, some will prefer the shifter in the 360, others the older school feel of the 328, with a F1 system i doubt anyone would prefer the 355 over the 430 and i expect that to be the case in 10 years from now when the latest and greatest F1 is compared to the now old system on the 430
F1 boxes will not be desirable in the classic car world until new versions offer less of an interactive experiance than older ones, people who buy classic's are not buying into flashy teck, thus i think manuals will be far more in demand, of course this is all cystal ball time really as who knows were classic values will be in the future, i think one of the big + points of current classics is there backwards compatable with current hardware, they all have petrol engines, i wonder what the effect of moving aways from petrol power will have on classic values, especially if we get to a point were petrol is no longer widely available due to alternate fuels being what new vehicles demand
Edited by peter450 on Thursday 17th December 00:41
hmm. How about the following counterargument:
As more and more everyday cars become two pedalled, there will be less need for people to learn how to drive a car with three pedals. In 10 years time if 95% of cars come with two pedals in whatever form, we will be creating a generation of drivers who are unwilling and unable to operate a clutch for themselves.
This means that in the long term the market for manual classics will crash - there is no point in buying something if you can't use it at all.
As more and more everyday cars become two pedalled, there will be less need for people to learn how to drive a car with three pedals. In 10 years time if 95% of cars come with two pedals in whatever form, we will be creating a generation of drivers who are unwilling and unable to operate a clutch for themselves.
This means that in the long term the market for manual classics will crash - there is no point in buying something if you can't use it at all.
davidspooner said:
hmm. How about the following counterargument:
As more and more everyday cars become two pedalled, there will be less need for people to learn how to drive a car with three pedals. In 10 years time if 95% of cars come with two pedals in whatever form, we will be creating a generation of drivers who are unwilling and unable to operate a clutch for themselves.
This means that in the long term the market for manual classics will crash - there is no point in buying something if you can't use it at all.
I feel this is a good point but at present I would imagine that most learners at present are being taught in manual cars and they will become the classic enthusiast's of 20-30-40 years time. So while I feel it's a good argument I think might be lack of fuel that becomes a greater issuer and obviousl it doesn't matter what gearbox youv'e got.As more and more everyday cars become two pedalled, there will be less need for people to learn how to drive a car with three pedals. In 10 years time if 95% of cars come with two pedals in whatever form, we will be creating a generation of drivers who are unwilling and unable to operate a clutch for themselves.
This means that in the long term the market for manual classics will crash - there is no point in buying something if you can't use it at all.
With regard to modern Ferrari buyers on here, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts on why they would (not) buy/spec an F430/599/612 with an F1 gearbox. Is it that they:
1) prefer the modern race technology, and Ferrari is leading the way in this so they want the newest and best they can get (applies to new and 2nd hand buyers)
2) prefer a manual gearbox/are not fussed either way, but believe a car without the F1 gearbox would be difficult to sell on (applies to new and 2nd hand buyers)
3) have v little choice (due to 1) as manual gearboxes on those 3 cars are rare, so they just look for the best car they can afford, and whatever 'box it comes with, it comes with (applies to second hand buyers only)
4) another reason I can't think of!
1) prefer the modern race technology, and Ferrari is leading the way in this so they want the newest and best they can get (applies to new and 2nd hand buyers)
2) prefer a manual gearbox/are not fussed either way, but believe a car without the F1 gearbox would be difficult to sell on (applies to new and 2nd hand buyers)
3) have v little choice (due to 1) as manual gearboxes on those 3 cars are rare, so they just look for the best car they can afford, and whatever 'box it comes with, it comes with (applies to second hand buyers only)
4) another reason I can't think of!
I spent a long time looking for my Rosso/Crema F430 Manual & it weren't easy!!
I drive an auto car daily (BMW335) & I want my second car to feel different & more engaging. Dont get me wrong I embrace new tech & these new F1/DSG systems are fantastic but I'm genuinely not that interested in microsecond gear changes!
I grew up with manual alfasuds etc & I agree that in years to come many people will expect electronics to change gear for them just like we expect power steering in our sports cars!
I drive an auto car daily (BMW335) & I want my second car to feel different & more engaging. Dont get me wrong I embrace new tech & these new F1/DSG systems are fantastic but I'm genuinely not that interested in microsecond gear changes!
I grew up with manual alfasuds etc & I agree that in years to come many people will expect electronics to change gear for them just like we expect power steering in our sports cars!
Having owned lots of Ferrari's over the year and currently having a 360 and 355 both manual by a conscious decision.
I have owned both a 360F1 and 360CS as well as a Gallardo e-gear and although I respect the technology, I never got past the video game feeling on the road, yes easy to feel like a driving god and ultimately probably go faster but all lacked connection and soul from the lack of one pedal and a gear lever to me.
I think it will be very personal thing and depend how old you are (no I'm not that old but did used to race classics where you really had to double declutch to just change gear so it's a huge part of the experience to me) and how much it costs to maintain F1 systems in later years but I'm already getting concerned about if there will be anything to replace my current toys with once no one ends up with full manuals...
So to me... yes, they will be worth more!
I have owned both a 360F1 and 360CS as well as a Gallardo e-gear and although I respect the technology, I never got past the video game feeling on the road, yes easy to feel like a driving god and ultimately probably go faster but all lacked connection and soul from the lack of one pedal and a gear lever to me.
I think it will be very personal thing and depend how old you are (no I'm not that old but did used to race classics where you really had to double declutch to just change gear so it's a huge part of the experience to me) and how much it costs to maintain F1 systems in later years but I'm already getting concerned about if there will be anything to replace my current toys with once no one ends up with full manuals...
So to me... yes, they will be worth more!
Harsh said:
I totally agree, the visceral pleasure of changing gear just never gets old.
It may be slower, less efficient and outdated but i drive my 360 for the pleasure of doing so rather than to be efficient.
F1 is the better option but manual is the more exciting one for me.
Well said that man. In fact I'd go one step further and say all flappy paddles drivers are in fact gay.It may be slower, less efficient and outdated but i drive my 360 for the pleasure of doing so rather than to be efficient.
F1 is the better option but manual is the more exciting one for me.
When it gets to out of hand and the death threats start rolling in bud. You have my number.....i am saving for a Dino;)
Joking aside i am actually a fan of both. The manual for the classic ferrari gated change and like i said, manuals are easy to work on.
But i am also a great fan of the F1 system. A few times i have taken a manual car along on brisk runs with a bunch of F1 equipped CS's. When the CS driver's sees an overtaking opportunity it grabs it in an instant and takes the cars in front. With a manual by the time your brain has registered the overtaking gap and reaches down to fumble with the gear lever...its to late the opportunities gone.
The most vicious F1 gear change i have ever experienced is the F430 Scud. Stu Patterson for the last 2 years lets me take my son up and down the Mulzain straight at Le mans week. Now that ba5tard whacks you in the back, i am amazed that it does not f
k up the clutch regularly.
If money was absolutely no object, the i would have both manual and F1 change. They are both fantastic in there individual ways.
But i am also a great fan of the F1 system. A few times i have taken a manual car along on brisk runs with a bunch of F1 equipped CS's. When the CS driver's sees an overtaking opportunity it grabs it in an instant and takes the cars in front. With a manual by the time your brain has registered the overtaking gap and reaches down to fumble with the gear lever...its to late the opportunities gone.
The most vicious F1 gear change i have ever experienced is the F430 Scud. Stu Patterson for the last 2 years lets me take my son up and down the Mulzain straight at Le mans week. Now that ba5tard whacks you in the back, i am amazed that it does not f
k up the clutch regularly. If money was absolutely no object, the i would have both manual and F1 change. They are both fantastic in there individual ways.
The first generation of F1 style gearboxes were arkward to use; hill starts, reversing, clutch control, downshifting etc.
Now with the second generation (DCT transmissions) many of those problems have been eliminated.
Don't get me wrong, these systems are far from perfect but I believe within 5 year we will have the perfect 'paddle operated' gearbox.
Now with the second generation (DCT transmissions) many of those problems have been eliminated.
Don't get me wrong, these systems are far from perfect but I believe within 5 year we will have the perfect 'paddle operated' gearbox.
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