Anyone know these F355s?

[Mario149]

Morning all, does anyone know about these cars or have any extra info on them that's not on the website?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1368484.htm
&
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1038080.htm

Thoughts?

ETA: It would appear Rardley have a good reputation. I spoke to Mike on the phone the other day and he was v helpful. But like all dealers I've come across, slightly allergic to email

Edited by Mario149 on Monday 21st December 10:30

[jdw1234]

Hey mate. 1 thing you may not have noticed is that the blue one has the earlier version of the Motronic engine management system (compare the two engine bays pics).

I emailed you about Sunday.

[The Milfman]

The blue one has been up for a while (it's on SOR). I looked at it about 6 months ago when I was searching and asked if there was a deal to be done (there wasn't). It has good history, is in superb condition and has had over £10k spent on it over the last couple of years.

I was slightly put off by the number of miles since the last service so is due one in the not too distant future (the major service mentioned in the advert was 4500 miles previously and over a year ago) and as I understand it, it has had very minor repair damage which was done through Ferrari, nothing to register CAT D though (you could find this out through Ferrari) and seemingly a very good car. The owner has a collection of 10+ Ferraris apparently so no expense has been spared (I didn't see them but I believe there are bills to prove).

Don't know anything about the red one.

Edited by The Milfman on Monday 21st December 11:40

[Mario149]

Many thanks for the comments so far.

Just to check: so people would consider a pre-purchase inspection necessary even if buying from a reputable dealer? I haven't viewed any cars yet (these will be my first), but I would have thought that before taking a car on as SOR, the dealer would do their own PPI, including leak down, compression test etc (given they could do it for next to nothing), to make sure they wouldn't get fingered as having sold a lemon?

If a PPI is deemed necessary, anyone know people nearby who could do it? Supercarhub seems to put Autofficina and Mototechnique as the nearest specialists...

[Mario149]

ferrari spider said:

Yes the blue one has arguably the better 2.7 motronic ECU system. With a little more power due to twin airflow meters.

How much power(/torque?) are we talking about here? Is it something I'm liable to notice (e.g. 20bhp), or some technical difference (5 bhp) which I'll immediately negate if I have an extra slice of toast with my breakfast that day?!

Or is it more to do with how the engine responds rather than the power?

Finally, it begs the question that if the earier version is better, why on earth did Ferrari "upgrade"?!!

[The Milfman]

Mario149 said:

Just to check: so people would consider a pre-purchase inspection necessary even if buying from a reputable dealer?

Probably a good idea for your own peace of mind. Although in theory a car has to be warrantied for 3 months and seen as fit for purpose. I.e. an engine letting go on a car costing £35k would be unreasonable as long as you hadn't done serious mileage and they can't prove it was your fault. So, from that point of view you shouldn't have to worry about gettin a pup.

Most things are going to be wear & tear and not covered by any warranty anyway but a good dealer tends to stand by their car and will do a lot out of goodwill in my experence (so as to look after their reputation and get repeat business from you).

Mario149 said:

I haven't viewed any cars yet (these will be my first), but I would have thought that before taking a car on as SOR, the dealer would do their own PPI, including leak down, compression test etc (given they could do it for next to nothing), to make sure they wouldn't get fingered as having sold a lemon?

I'm pretty sure most dealers don't do a leak down or compression test when they get cars in and even less likely for SOR. I know that Rardley don't as I asked them the very same question.

Cars tend to show problems in other ways like a misfire that a specialist with a trained ear can pick up on where someone like me couldn't. If they notice something on inspection they probably won't go any further with the deal (be it taking the car into stock or SOR) until the situation has been rectified or investigated (and not at their cost either).

[The Milfman]

ferrari spider said:

Its only a few bhp more. But the main thing is that it breaths better because it has two airflow meters. The newer 5.2s only have one the same size.
Also the 2.7s respond better to any engine tuning one may do. There are some 355 tuners in the USA that replace the single airflow meter with a bigger Porsche unit to gain more air flow.
Finally its been proved that just because something comes out of the ferrari factory as better, its not necessarily so.

Also the 2.7 is supposed to have better torque for the same reason (more noticeable than the bhp difference) and the 2.7 will sound better than the 5.2 with the same exhaust (whether standard or Capristo etc).

People are only put off the earlier cars due to the valve guide issues (bronze ones wear) which, are very rare anyway. Generally they will have been replaced early on in the cars life if they were faulty or wearing and cars were affected up until & including '98 as they used a mixture of bronze and steel guides till then. The general belief for those in the know and assuming you get a good car is that the 2.7 is more desirable.

Edited by The Milfman on Monday 21st December 12:48

[Andy 308GTB]

For even the best cars, a decent PPI can often throw up some minor faults that can be used as a starting point to haggle the price down. Or it can provide a list of items that should be fixed before you take delivery.

Without the PPI you probably won't be aware of these minor faults until someone points them out to you & by then it's too late to go back to the seller.

[phib]

Inspection
Inspection
Inspection

Mike is a great guy, I would just want to know the ins and outs of any Ferrari I was buying

Phib

[Mario149]

I think I have a couple of concerns about each of those cars

Blue one:
high(er) mileage - I intend to do 6k miles a year in mine, which will rapidly up the mileage to 50k+. Not in itself an issue for reliability, but I've only spotted one 355 for sale at a mileage that high, which might imply they are rather tricky to sell for a decent price. And as much as I think now I would keep the car for years and years, the reality is that as always, I'll want to change again in a year or so, or my circumstances force me to. Also, as cheesy as it sounds, I really do want a Rosso/Crema or Nero/Giallo one!

Red one:
given its mileage and colour, it *should* be significantly more expensive than the blue one, which it isn't, which implies the overall condition is much less good. That said, if it's only cosmetic stuff like reconditioning of seats, a couple of paint chips, brakes/tyres nearly worn out, which are devaluing it, I'd be happy to take it on and spend a bit of money or so sorting it out during my ownership. And even it's the later 5.2 thingy, it has a Larini exhaust on it, so if it sounds like this at all, I'll be more than happy

[The Milfman]

ferrari spider said:

And...if you get a 2.7 355 spider you will get the unique twin Harmonic resonators in the engine bay which look alot better than the non spider versions Theses are only found on 1995-6 2.7s in Europe only. And they fill the engine bay more so than the non Harmonic versions.
Heres my early spider version compared to an early non spider version.

Interesting, you learn something new everyday!

Thanks.

ETA - That is a seriously clean engine bay!!

Edited by The Milfman on Monday 21st December 13:22

[Mario149]

ferrari spider said:

And...if you get a 2.7 355 spider you will get the unique twin Harmonic resonators in the engine bay which look alot better than the non spider versions Theses are only found on 1995-6 2.7s in Europe only. And they fill the engine bay more so than the non Harmonic versions.
Heres my early spider version compared to an early non spider version.

What functional purpose does a twin harmonic resonator serve when it's at home exactly?! Is it just to make the car sound better?

[The Milfman]

ferrari spider said:

i just think Milfman and myself are F355 anoraks. And once you get two anoraks started....

[Mario149]

I've just had a very polite call from Anthony at HWM reference this car. I emailed them a couple of days ago just to cover all bases as the car is in one of the colour combos I want

Apparently: they own it outright (I think someone here said it was SOR when they saw it), is in impeccable condition etc etc (again, someone has posted to the contrary).

I think I will go and look at it (remembering all that has been said about them and keeping eyes wide open, but also trying not to pre-judge) after getting them to send me its detailed service history.

You all think I'm mad now don't you?

[Mario149]

ferrari spider said:

Its usually good to take a level headed mate with you, then listen to his opinion of the car. Because the hart is waayy more mightier than ya head when looking to buy ya first Ferrari.

Now that sounds like an eminently sensible thing to do Although I'll have take a different mate from when I bought the Maser, all he did was say "stuff the Z4M, get this, it's way cooler" (or words to that effect) over and over again

[Mario149]

Okay, so I've been sent the HWM car's service history:

DATE MILEAGE SERVICE CARRIED OUT AT
12-06-1997 1364 HR Owen - London
01-12-1997 3675 HR Owen - London
29-05-1998 4678 HR Owen - London
31-07-1999 5263 HR Owen - London
01-08-2000 9015 Evans Halshow - Brimingham
02-04-2001 10848 Evans Halshow - Brimingham (Cambelt changed)
18-08-2003 15278 Joe macari- Birmingham
17-09-2004 17524 Joe macari- Birmingham
02-01-2005 19814 Joe macari-Brimingham
31-05-2006 20200 Cortesse - Bath (Ferrari Specialist) Cambelt changed
02-11-2006 21338 Cortesse - Bath (Ferrari Specialist)
20-03-2008 25301 Cortesse - Bath (Ferrari Specialist)
02-04-2009 26012 QV London- Ferrari Specialist


First things I note:
1st cambelt change 10 months late
2nd and (most recent!!) cambelt change 25 months late
3rd, and not yet done cambelt (to be done before delivery), currently 7 months late and counting....
Ref cambelts, it's almost like it's on an American schedule! Anyway, I digress..
Missing annual service in 2002
Missing annual service in 2007
Overall service intervals seem very haphazard

How does this compare to other cars people here have seen? I'm getting alarm bells in my head especially when compared to this for the blue one from Rardley (which in itself isn't entirely perfect):

Annual service 10-03-98 Maranello Sales 5,789 miles
Annual service 01-04-99 Maranello Sales 8,417 miles*
Annual service 31-01-01 Maranello Sales 11,163 miles
Annual service 13-06-01 Maranello Sales 11,429 miles**
Annual service 01-11-02 Maranello Sales 17,513 miles*
Annual service 08-10-03 Carrs 20,051 miles
Annual service 28-07-04 Carrs 25,025 miles
Major service 18-05-05 Rosso Corsa 29,498 miles*
Annual service 23-01-06 AE Performance Eng 34,667 miles
Major service 22-12-08 Rardley 35,984 miles*
Annual service TBD Rardley 41,200 miles
star=included cam belts
double star=included new catalytic converters

Thoughts from those with a more trained eye?

PS: seriously, how difficult can it be to set an alarm in your calendar once a year to remind you to get a car serviced? And then actually do it?! And if you've bought one of these (nearly) new, you can't be short of a few bob to do it properly

Edited by Mario149 on Monday 21st December 19:27

[Mario149]

phib said:

So here are my thoughts for what it worth everyone says you can buy a used 355 for 30 -35k and you can.

It just wont be fantastic condition and or full (proper service history) service history.

I guess this is a good example of this

On a more positive note the service history is okish but when you come to sell this you will need to reflect it in the price (people will negotiate on these points) as it as seen as not being “perfect”

Re it being serviced at Qv, I know Mike at qv pretty well( he has looked after my 355 for years), if you would like me to ask him about the can drop me a pm with the reg, he is very honest whether you like it or not.

Without seeing the car it is impossible to give and opinion, however if it was me ( and it isn’t) I wouldn’t tough it with a barge pole.

I bought mine with perfect history every year same month since 1997 and loads and loads of invoices but I paid more than the average 355 at the time. But I wanted a perfect car in both condition and service history in red and cream.

It cost me more to buy but I have spent nothing but annual servicing every year since circa £500 a year, I know a couple of people who bought cheap and the spent 000’s getting their car right. I looked at 22 cars and 2.5 years to find the right one but I wanted a perfect one.

Not sure that helps but just a few words for thought.

Phib

Hi phib, thanks for your thoughts. I don't have the reg number yet (and knowing this type of car, it's prob been changed a few times!), but would you be able to ask Qv to look it up based on the info from the service (02-04-2009 26012 miles QV London- Ferrari Specialist)? There can't have been that many yellow spiders at exactly that mileage in for a service at the same time

I take your point about imperfect service histories and pricing. I'd be happy to pick up a cheaper car with an imperfect history providing it came back clean after an inspection. In a sense, buy cheap/sell cheap is okay for me if there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the car bar a couple of cosmetic issues. My main worries are 3-fold:

1) if imperfect servicing has been carried out, can it have repercussions later in the car's life i.e. the best inspection carried out by an Indy will still not reveal damage requiring £15k to fix that was caused by an earlier lack of care of the car?

2) if someone can't be a*sed to stick to a service schedule, what else have they skimped on? Which leads to 3...

3) I'd be much happier with a car that appears to have had a lot of repair work done to it over the years (almost seeming unreliable if you will) compared to a car that has seemingly been perfect. The logic being that since they are machines built from the same components they will not be that dissimilar, and over an extended period of time, will cost approx the same to run, and things that will break on one, will break on the other. Therefore, the perfect runner would seem to be a giant set of bills waiting to happen...

[Mario149]

phib said:

Mario, I will have a chat with Mike tomorrow and see what he says, I will drop you mail.

cheers for that

[lanan]

Are you looking at buying a car or a service history book..........

As long as it has been looked after, then surely that is what matters.
It's current condition, which can be evaluated, is more important than a service book ( which can be fudged).

What .....?....Clock a Ferrari......?..........Never........!

.

[Andy 308GTB]

lanan said:

Are you looking at buying a car or a service history book..........

As long as it has been looked after, then surely that is what matters.
It's current condition, which can be evaluated, is more important than a service book ( which can be fudged).

What .....?....Clock a Ferrari......?..........Never........!

.

+1

The service being done late may be because people have lives too
If the car is being laid up for a period (winter, working abroad etc) - owners will most likely choose to defer the service until the car is back on the road.